Questions For Calvinists!

[AJB4]

*Post Deleted*

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Why do you ask questions that prove you obviously don't know the first thing about what you're attacking? You obviously have no interest in learning what we believe...you've already got your mind made up that we're evil.

How about these ...

1) Why do you want to follow a religion that is so wimpy that God never really means what He says about repentance and following Him by taking up our cross daily?

2) Why do you follow a religion started by a man only about 170 years ago, and think it is more than just a common cult? Assuming, of course, you are yer basic American dispensationalist.

3) Why do you follow a religion that God in no way endorsed in his scriptures (and if you think that God did endorse it, what Bible verses do you get it from)? See...we believe the Scriptures really mean what they say...such as 'repent and believe' and

RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

...and...

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Sorry if my questions sound so blunt.

 

[AJB4]

Good grief, that blew up in my face. Man, take a chill pill.

I could've worded it better, but I wasn't actually trying to attack anything. You drew that conclusion on your own (going back to my native part of the forum now).

Peace.

 

[CardinalBaseball]

Good grief, that blew up in my face. Man, take a chill pill.

I could've worded it better, .

Then do that.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

For anybody who wanders by and wonders what's up with this, since the kid erased his original post, I simply repeated the kid's questions back to him. Here's basically what they were...

1) Why do you want to follow a religion that is so harsh...(and I can't recall the exact wording, but you know where it was going.)

2) Why do you follow a religion started by a man only about 500 years ago, and think it is more than just a common cult?

3) Why do you follow a religion that God in no way endorsed in his scriptures (and if you think that God did endorse it, what Bible verses do you get it from)?

Notice...I just gave his third question back to him verbatim.

Oh...and his last words were "Sorry if my questions sound so blunt." (I thought adding the Big Grin smiley was a nice touch.)

 

[heymikey80]

1) Why do you want to follow a religion that is so harsh...(and I can't recall the exact wording, but you know where it was going.)

2) Why do you follow a religion started by a man only about 500 years ago, and think it is more than just a common cult?

3) Why do you follow a religion that God in no way endorsed in his scriptures (and if you think that God did endorse it, what Bible verses do you get it from)?

Given his age, I think some straight answers may be in order:

1. "Want"? Well, I'd rather want to live in a world in truth than imagine some soft cushy world that's utterly unreal. You'll find that you live in a sinful world. Living in that sinful world isn't a matter of wanting to -- it's a matter of living in the truth.

2. Because it wasn't. The obvious historical references back to Paul are a matter of clear fact. If you'd like a demonstration, ask some of your mentors: "Why does God find fault, when no one resists His will?" See what their responses are. And then go to the Scriptures and see what Paul's answer is. If you can't find the reference, please ask. It's more interesting if you don't go looking up the answer before you ask your mentors.

It was for me. It made me rethink my whole theology when, a year older than you, I asked my youth pastor this very question, and it smashed my largely "free will" thinking about God.

3. It's awfully clear that God endorses Calvinism in His Scriptures. Scripture is predestinarian (Rom 8:28, Ep 1:4). It's Scriptural. Scripture shows salvation by grace through faith, not of works (Ep 2:8-10) nor of membership in a particular human organization (Lk 9:49-50). It's Scriptural.

So to answer his questions, ABJ4, your assumptions are wrong and so your questions are pretty much at odds with reality. Thankfully, brother, we both have a Savior Who can deal with errors, and not throw you or I out on our keisters when we're wrong about things. When we rely on Him, He remains reliable -- He can't deny Himself.

 

[AJB4]

How about these ...

1) Why do you want to follow a religion that is so wimpy that God never really means what He says about repentance and following Him by taking up our cross daily?

2) Why do you follow a religion started by a man only about 170 years ago, and think it is more than just a common cult? Assuming, of course, you are yer basic American dispensationalist.

3) Why do you follow a religion that God in no way endorsed in his scriptures (and if you think that God did endorse it, what Bible verses do you get it from)? See...we believe the Scriptures really mean what they say...such as 'repent and believe' and

1) How do you think that my religion is 'wimpy', and that in my religion we don't take up our crosses daily and repent? Being part of any Christian church ain't no walk in the park. Why do you seem to think that my religion is wimpy? All my religion does is follow the Bible? Is the Bible wimpy?

2) I am no American, and no, my religion was started long before 170 years ago. Perhaps 'common cult' was a bit harsh, but Calvin was a man, just like anyone. Men everywhere give their individual views on the Bible. What makes him any different?

3) Why do you think we don't believe the Scriptures really mean what they say?

Anyway, I kind of wish I didn't post here in the first place. I don't want to make any enemies here.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

1)
Anyway, I kind of wish I didn't post here in the first place. I don't want to make any enemies here.

OK...now maybe we can get somewhere.

All I did was ask your own questions back to you. You think I was making assumptions? Well, so were you. Your bias' were painfully obvious. It wasn't very nice of either of us, was it?

If you really want to understand Calvinism, we can give you pointers here, but volumes have been written on the topic by more polished theologians than us. I would highly recommend What is Reformed Theology? by RC Sproul or Putting Amazing Back into Grace by Michael Horton. Either of those books puts hundreds of pages of Reformed, or Calvinist, theology, into layman's terms. Or spend time browsing these websites:

http://www.monergism.com/

http://www.reformed.org/

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/

The second thing I'd recommend is for you to lurk around the Semper Reformanda forums without posting anything for a while. See if you can make sense of anything that we are talking about amongst ourselves. If you come up with specific questions, feel free to post away and ask them....without putting them in to "when did you stop beating your wife?"-type questions. Dude...that's just asking for

. It's called using 'loaded language'.

 

[heymikey80]

1) How do you think that my religion is 'wimpy', and that in my religion we don't take up our crosses daily and repent? Being part of any Christian church ain't no walk in the park. Why do you seem to think that my religion is wimpy? All my religion does is follow the Bible? Is the Bible wimpy?

Hm, I'm not sure what "wimpy" really means, but I would speculate you believe God can't make decisive changes in people, for all His desire to. We think God can be irresistible when He's of mind to. We also think God is excruciatingly accurate and precise about His work in the world, and not only knows but intends everything that comes to pass, for as long as it comes to pass, and He intends everything that ceases to be, when it ceases to be.

You say all your religion does is follow the Bible. How many miles have you walked with your opposition? One would think that a combative tone right off the bat doesn't indicate much in the way of patience. How's your kindness toward your enemies doing?

And how are you following the Scripture when it says, "There is no one righteous, who seeks God"? How does someone both follow the Scripture commanding him to be perfect, and follow the Scripture asserting that he's not?

Y'see the basic problem here? Even if your church had accurately understood the Scriptures, there's that little problem of following the Scriptures that comes up.

2) I am no American, and no, my religion was started long before 170 years ago. Perhaps 'common cult' was a bit harsh, but Calvin was a man, just like anyone. Men everywhere give their individual views on the Bible. What makes him any different?

Well, actually the Christian church is of Campbellite origin. You may think its view is older, but then so does anyone else who looks at the Bible.

3) Why do you think we don't believe the Scriptures really mean what they say?

How about, "So God has mercy on whom He wants, and whom He wants He hardens."

 

[AJB4]

You say all your religion does is follow the Bible. How many miles have you walked with your opposition? One would think that a combative tone right off the bat doesn't indicate much in the way of patience. How's your kindness toward your enemies doing?

Like I said, I don't want to make enemies here. I don't thankfully have too many enemies, but I'm pretty sure I'm about as kind to my enemies as the next person.

How about, "So God has mercy on whom He wants, and whom He wants He hardens."

That's one of the disturbing parts. No God I worshipped would 'harden' a believer, if that's what you're meaning. Yes, he will turn away the sinners on judgement day, but not a believer just because of their predestination.

Which leads me to another question. About predestination:

Basically, in your beliefs, are sinners the non-elect (those who will never find Christianity or Calivinism or whatever) and are the elect the ones that do find Christianity, or would there be faithful Christians who are non-elect and led a life of service to God for nothing because of their predestination?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

That's one of the disturbing parts. No God I worshipped would 'harden' a believer, if that's what you're meaning. Yes, he will turn away the sinners on judgement day, but not a believer just because of their predestination.

You are misunderstanding this. God doesn't 'harden' believers. Look at the context in Romans 9. Most problems occur in people's theology when they don't even get simple grammar right.

You're last sentence in the above quote makes it seem like you think Calvinists teach God would turn away believers on judgement day because they aren't the elect? Is that what you said? I don't want to misunderstand you.

Which leads me to another question. About predestination:

Basically, in your beliefs, are sinners the non-elect (those who will never find Christianity or Calivinism or whatever) and are the elect the ones that do find Christianity, or would there be faithful Christians who are non-elect and led a life of service to God for nothing because of their predestination?

We are all sinners, dude...elect, non-elect, everybody. The amazing thing is that God would choose anybody for salvation...but He does. That's where grace comes in...which is not harsh at all, but the very antithesis of harshness. Calvinists don't see God's choosing to save some of the rebellious sinners arrayed against Him as being harsh but merciful.

Let's start at the real starting place...what does the Bible say a person is capable of doing with his/her free choice...as far as choosing for or against God...before God regenerates his/her spirit? (See...most Calvinists do believe that people have a choice. It's more of a matter of what people do with that choice.)

BTW....have you checked out anything at those websites I pointed out, or lurked in any of the Semper Reformanda rooms yet, like I asked you to? You will find a lot of basic questions answered at them. Check this one out in particular:

http://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Try this one, too:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/goldenchain-boice.html

 

[CardinalBaseball]

1) How do you think that my religion is 'wimpy', and that in my religion we don't take up our crosses daily and repent? Being part of any Christian church ain't no walk in the park. Why do you seem to think that my religion is wimpy? All my religion does is follow the Bible? Is the Bible wimpy?

2) I am no American, and no, my religion was started long before 170 years ago. Perhaps 'common cult' was a bit harsh, but Calvin was a man, just like anyone. Men everywhere give their individual views on the Bible. What makes him any different?

3) Why do you think we don't believe the Scriptures really mean what they say?

Anyway, I kind of wish I didn't post here in the first place. I don't want to make any enemies here.

You have a huge misunderstanding of what Calvinism is. And by the questions you asked, I'm going to go ahead and say you don't know much about it at all.

 

[heymikey80]

These are good questions at their core, but keep in mind, Calvinists have answers that rearrange the assumptions of some of your questions.

Like I said, I don't want to make enemies here. I don't thankfully have too many enemies, but I'm pretty sure I'm about as kind to my enemies as the next person.

Do you see the contradiction, here? Jesus didn't say, "Be as kind to your enemies as the next person," did He? I think he said, "Be kind to your enemies, and in so doing mimic the Father's kindness to His enemies." This is around the end of Matthew 5. In other words, God doesn't grade on a curve.

I think you and I both must realize at the heart of things, we're not following the Bible on this kind of command. There's something in us both that just revolts against this kind of sacrifice. Oh we may become heroes for a time, and maybe we could hope our deaths would reflect dimly some of this great sacrificial giving -- but I see inside the sinful shrinking from this kind of greatness. Is it in you as well, or am I alone?

That's one of the disturbing parts. No God I worshipped would 'harden' a believer, if that's what you're meaning. Yes, he will turn away the sinners on judgement day, but not a believer just because of their predestination.

Ahm. So Romans 9:18 doesn't say what it ... says? "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

I think you might misunderstand the dependencies here, too: Reformed people think the elect are the only people with saving faith: That God predestines people to be regenerate, and regeneration results in the faith that saves.

But if you go back to simply "belief", there are indeed people who "believe for a time" and then are hardened. "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away." Lk 8:13

Basically, in your beliefs, are sinners the non-elect (those who will never find Christianity or Calivinism or whatever) and are the elect the ones that do find Christianity,

Sinners are everyone. Doesn't the Bible say this? So sinners are everyone, elect, non-elect. Everyone.

The elect are those God draws to Christ -- not necessarily "Christianity" (as an ideology or theology), but Christian faith as a dependency on the living resurrected Jesus.

or would there be faithful Christians who are non-elect and led a life of service to God for nothing because of their predestination?

"faithful" ... um, on what terms? This word can mean two things.

"full of faith" -- in which case, Christ would not deny they are His brothers, "for He cannot deny Himself".

"trustworthy" -- in which case, two possibilities of meaning:

"trustworthy" might be in God's eyes, in which case there's only One who's utterly trustworthy -- Jesus Christ.

So the only other meaning would be, "trustworthy" in human observation. In that case indeed their life of service would not get them into heaven. Salvation is "not of works". (Ep 2:9) Salvation is "apart from works". (Rom 3:27-28, 4:4)

This doesn't mean the works of people are "for nothing", but it does mean they won't accomplish salvation. I think I can demonstrate this is quite Biblical. Those condemned wouldn't actually lie to God by trumping up their actions, would they? Why would they flatly lie saying (in Mt 25 & 7:21-23), "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve you?" or "We cast out demons in your name!" I wouldn't be lying to Christ at that point. Why would I presume people like me would be lying to Christ at that point?

So I think they're not lying. Those condemned really did perform these kinds of works. But works don't save. Jesus Christ saves, and that through faith, not of works.

 

[prayerbone]

We are all sinners, dude...elect, non-elect, everybody. The amazing thing is that God would choose anybody for salvation...but He does. That's where grace comes in...

Wowee u make it sound like the unelect should be happy God picks some people !! why should i be???i didnt ask to be born into a sinful world, if i had he might have a right !

sound's like God says "i created u into a sinful body,because of that my son died on a cross for all..but hummm this is where it gets yucky, i want all to turn to me but only elected some..so i'm going to send the ones i didnt elect to hell for not turning to me, when in reality they couldn't anyway"

u make the cross into a carrot hung forever out of reach

that right folks i'm God and i also work partime at the bates motel

 

[heymikey80]

Um, a moment, prayerbone. First, your tone doesn't conform to the guidelines for this particular discussion. You're new, and frankly this is a really tough topic to keep from offense. But I adjure you to change the posting. It doesn't conform to the guidelines.

But second, look at the assumption surrounding your statement, "the unelect should be happy ...". First, there's nothing GrinningDwarf said that implies such a thing. Right answers aren't always happy. Evil exists, how's that "happy"? God isn't under orders to make evil people happy with His judgement. He does what's right, not what makes evil people happy.

An unhappy sentence of death is entirely permitted and desirable, if it's right.

You also presume that eternal life with God is "a carrot hung forever out of reach". A "carrot" would be something that each individual desires. That's simply not true when reality sets in on what eternal life is. Many, many people (I'd say "all" at some point in their lives, but I'm a Calvinist) don't really want salvation if it means not getting their way, if it means they're wrong, if it means they're compelled to change, if it means they will seek perfection the rest of their humiliated lives.

This is not a carrot for those who aren't born in the Spirit. And as God only bears in the Spirit those He adopts as His chosen, the connection is downright clear. Only those who see the Kingdom in the Spirit really see it as a carrot. And those are the only people God saves.

 

[heymikey80]

This was recently posted on another forum, and I found it pretty relevant to answer questions about the strength of the Calvinistic view of election and its Scriptural consistency.

Chosen to Salvation
By A.W.Pink

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

There are three things here which deserve special attention.

First, the fact that we are expressly told that God's elect are "chosen to salvation": Language could not be more explicit. How summarily do these words dispose of the sophistries and equivocations of all who would make election refer to nothing but external privileges or rank in service! It is to "salvation" itself that God has chosen us.

Second, we are warned here that election unto salvation does not disregard the use of appropriate means: salvation is reached through "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" It is not true that because God has chosen a certain one to salvation that he will be saved willy-nilly, whether he believes or not: nowhere do the Scriptures so represent it. The same God who "chose unto salvation", decreed that His purpose should be realized through the work of the spirit and belief of the truth.

Third, that God has chosen us unto salvation is a profound cause for fervent praise. Note how strongly the apostle express this - "we are bound to give thanks always to God for you. brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation", etc. Instead of shrinking back in horror from the doctrine of predestination, the believer, when he sees this blessed truth as it is unfolded in the Word, discovers a ground for gratitude and thanksgiving such as nothing else affords, save the unspeakable gift of the Redeemer Himself.

 

[bradfordl]

if it means they will seek perfection the rest of their humiliated lives.

That is a short, sweet, powerful and very convicting statement. Thanks Mikey.

 

[prayerbone]

no i dont think are change it mikey im not stayin anyhow ,so u can if u feel lead...

u remind me of people that hold a party then spit ur dummy out when the uninvited hold a party of there own
bye

 

[prayerbone]

You also presume that eternal life with God is "a carrot hung forever out of reach". A "carrot" would be something that each individual desires.

yes it is a carrot, the unelect dont desire it because there predestined not to