Questions for atheists / agnostics

[Roonwit]

Well, ok - and, as you surely have noted, I didn´t discuss or debated them, either.

Quite so. I've been really pleased at the openness of the responses I've received.

I just felt they were apt to invite controversial debate - although your initial intent was to promote understanding.

That's probably an inevitable risk when one embarks on detente

Roonwit

 

[quatona]

That's probably an inevitable risk when one embarks on detente

Sorry, not being a native English speaker I am not familiar with this phrase.
Couldn´t find an explanation online, either.
I love to learn new expressions. Care to enlighten me?

 

[Roonwit]

Sorry. 'Detente' was the term used to describe the attempt of the USA and USSR to ease tensions between them during the Cold War, and is now generally applied to any attempt to ease political tensions. Since, in my experience, the relations between Christians and atheists are often pretty acrimonious, it seems a fair term to use for trying to increase understanding between them.

Roonwit

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Hello, Roonwit.

Typically, these 'list of questions for atheists'-type threads tend to be extremely condescending and passive-aggressive. Thanks for not being that way.

1) Have you always been an atheist, or did you become one?

Always. From day one of Ms. Heflin's Sunday School class.

If you have always been an atheist, could you outline the influences that brought that about

Well, nothing 'brought it about'. It was always that way. That's kind of the point. I started out not believing and never had sufficient reason to begin.

2) Have you ever come close or given serious consideration to abandoning atheism?

I wouldn't phrase it that way at all, but I understand the question.

Anyway, no. Not even close.

3) What arguments for theism / religion do you hear a lot but find completely unconvincing?

All of them, which is why I'm still an atheist.

4) Are there any misconceptions that you find that theists / religious people often have about atheism / atheists, which you often find yourself having to explain?

That atheism is a belief system/religion/worldview.

5) Do you feel that being an atheist improves your life in some way?

No, being an atheist is mostly innocuous. It is occasionally a problem on a social and professional level, due to the stigma, but I am lucky to live in the most irreligious region of the US.

 

[quatona]

Sorry.

Noa problem at all. The language used here is English.

'Detente' was the term used to describe the attempt of the USA and USSR to ease tensions between them during the Cold War, and is now generally applied to any attempt to ease political tensions.

I see, thank you!
Just to clarify my previous statement:
It appeared to me that your original post indeed breathed this spirit, while the post in question didn´t. Just my feedback.

Since, in my experience, the relations between Christians and atheists are often pretty acrimonious, it seems a fair term to use for trying to increase understanding between them.

Can´t say anything about your experiences, but this notion doesn´t match my real life experiences. Everyone around me is Christian, and we have very good exchanges of thoughts about our different positions, which includes poking fun of ourselves and each other. My Catholic friends tease the Protestants by referring to themselves as "The True Believers" (and vice versa), I refer to both as "superstitious", they refer to me as "the unwashed Heathen". It´s just not that important, compared to the significant aspects of reality.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If by "atheism does not necessarily imply moral nihilism" you mean that not all atheists are moral nihilists (in fact, probably most are not), then that is clearly true. What I was struggling with is whether there was any kind of basis for this thing called 'morality', as distinct from following social norms as the best way to propagate my genes to future generations.

There are a variety of different moral theories, and most of them are available to atheists.

 

[Simmeh]

Right then.

1) Have you always been an atheist, or did you become one? If you became one, could you outline the journey that brought you to atheism. If you have always been an atheist, could you outline the influences that brought that about (eg. the attitudes of family, friends, teachers, etc towards theistic belief).

I was a Christian of some kind for about 26 years. You'll notice that this number is the same as the number on my tombstone data. That is because I am a recent de-convert.

But yes, I was raised Christian and was completely immersed in it most of my life. Specifically, I was raised Christian Reformed, a branch of Calvinism. Growing up I was more familiar with Bible stories than with nursery rhymes. I went to Sunday School, attended Vacation Bible School every year, was heavily involved with Calvinist Cadets (the Boy Scouts equivalent for the denomination) as both a cadet and and a leader, and I was part of the youth group in my teens, even becoming one of the student leaders in my last year. I did a 'confirmation' (called 'profession of faith' in that denomination) when I was 18. I furthermore attended private Christian Schools for my primary and secondary education, complete with mandatory Bible classes almost every year.

In university I had a bit of a backslide, partly because I found I connected more with my agnostic and atheist friends, and partly because there was no church I really liked in the city I went to school in. I would still attend church regularly in the summer though, when I moved back with my parents.

After I joined the military there was about a year where I did nothing at all. I think I attended chapel once in basic training, but that was it. After I got a more permanent posting, I found a church that I really liked, and there was a point during that time that I really thought that I would be able to pull through and re-establish myself with a strong faith. I attended for about a year and a half before I pulled the plug on my Christianity.

And it really was a "plug pull", a lot like taking a dying person off life support. Throughout those two and a half decades there were a bunch of things that wore me down. At a very young ages I became aware of the discrepancies between reality and the Bible - I think I was 6 when I read a book on dinosaurs and couldn't figure out why the Garden of Eden wasn't being mentioned. There are also things that really unsettled me about Christianity. For example, I find the idea that humans are nothing more than worthless, depraved sinners who can't accomplish anything or achieve any sort of happiness without belief in Yahweh is deeply disturbing.

There were two things that ultimately tipped the scales for me. One was logic. I was looking up some stuff about pseudohistory and stumbled into a page describing informal logical fallacies. I had deduced a lot of them on my own, but was never able to concisely describe the. When I saw them all laid out, I realized that most applied to my own dwindling religious beliefs.

The second thing that pushed me over the edge was, incidentally, discussions like this. I had always been told that atheism was 'the belief that there is no god' and that atheists were nothing but sad and angry people who were missing out on one of the greatest joys in life because of their own ignorance and arrogance. When I actually read and listened to what people like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens or Dan Barker or whoever else had to say, they didn't strike me like that at all - in fact, a lot of what they said made perfect sense. They weren't bitter and immoral, and any anger they had was usually reserved for when religious folks did something truly outrageous.

So in about February of this year I was sitting in my chair in my apartment, looking for any reason at all to continue calling myself Christian. Finding none, I let it go.

2) Have you ever come close or given serious consideration to abandoning atheism? If so, what were the reasons / arguments that you found most convincing for theism / religion?

Honestly, there are things that I do indeed miss about Christianity, and sometimes I do consider what it would be like to go back. I don't think I've ever truly considered going back, just pondered what it would be like to do so.

And there are still things that make me tingle. Hymns are a big one. My sister got married in August and the song that was sung was Be Thou My Vision. I'll fully admit that I got goosebumps from it, in the same way that I would when I was in church singing it.

3) What arguments for theism / religion do you hear a lot but find completely unconvincing? Can you briefly explain why?

I don't find any convincing at all really, but then many apologetics aren't meant to be. The ones that are tend to be few and far between. Everything else is either meant to reassure the faithful or to win debates, and arguments in both those categories fall apart when scrutinized.

The specific apologetic I hear most often is Pascal's Wager, though often with a fairly informal delivery. However, I've never found that argument convincing. Even when I first heard it as a puberty-addled 16 year old who was eyeballs deep in Christianity I knew there was a glaring false dichotomy in it.

4) Are there any misconceptions that you find that theists / religious people often have about atheism / atheists, which you often find yourself having to explain?

Not really. I live in Canada, and while we are technically a Christian nation, most people keep religion to themselves. I have one particularly religious co-worker, but even he knows not to preach in the office. The only time he said something ill-conceived is when he told me that one day he would introduce me to "his Lord". He simply failed to realize that most atheists, especially in Europe and North America, know about Jesus, and many are atheists precisely because they have read the Bible.

5) Do you feel that being an atheist improves your life in some way? (eg. does it help you to be more moral, give you a sense of purpose, inspire you?) Or is it just an absence of God, with no significance for you, as not fishing is to a person who doesn't go fishing?

I'd say so. After my deconversion, and after finding out that my parents weren't going to disown me, I felt very liberated, as if a great obligation had been lifted. Of course, I'm probably just living in the blissful 'zeal of the convert' right now, something I've had to work hard to temper. It definitely helped me deal with some moral issues, where my head said "yes" but my upbringing said "no".

I do hope one day that saying "I'm an atheist" will be no longer necessary, just as saying, "I don't collect stamps," is unnecessary right now.

Thanks, I look forward to learning from your responses.

Roonwit

You are most welcome. Hope this was helpful. It was nice to have some honest questions; I haven't been hear long, but I have definitely seen some posters around here who are utterly condescending towards non-believers.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Noa problem at all. The language used here is English.

I see, thank you!
Just to clarify my previous statement:
It appeared to me that your original post indeed breathed this spirit, while the post in question didn´t. Just my feedback.

Can´t say anything about your experiences, but this notion doesn´t match my real life experiences. Everyone around me is Christian, and we have very good exchanges of thoughts about our different positions, which includes poking fun of ourselves and each other. My Catholic friends tease the Protestants by referring to themselves as "The True Believers" (and vice versa), I refer to both as "superstitious", they refer to me as "the unwashed Heathen". It´s just not that important, compared to the significant aspects of reality.

Did you ever consider "unwashed" heathen may be as much a statement regarding BO as it is your beliefs?

 

[quatona]

Did you ever consider "unwashed" heathen may be as much a statement regarding BO as it is your beliefs?

BO?

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Questions:

1) Have you always been an atheist, or did you become one? If you became one, could you outline the journey that brought you to atheism. If you have always been an atheist, could you outline the influences that brought that about (eg. the attitudes of family, friends, teachers, etc towards theistic belief).

I was raised as a Seventh Day Adventist and attended church regularly. But someone around 8 or 9 the concept of God made less and less sense to me. I didn't realize what an atheist was or that such was a valid position. By the time I got to 13 I realized that I couldn't feel the voice or presence of God. As I took history classes I came to the conclusion that religion was a method for others to control the populace.

In general religion makes no sense to me but I have come to realize that it helps other people. I have never declared my disbelief to family as I'm not truly anti religion but am merely a non participant.

2) Have you ever come close or given serious consideration to abandoning atheism? If so, what were the reasons / arguments that you found most convincing for theism / religion?

Yes. Atheism is an incredible barrier to dating most women in the black community. Most would not even consider dating an atheist. As such I had a period in which I attended a few churches in hope that I would believe. I tried and tried to force belief unto myself but instead became more convinced that it isn't real. I also concluded that there are a number of men in church who don't believe or are indifferent and simply "fake the funk" to get with women, but they will admit this only to a few.

3) What arguments for theism / religion do you hear a lot but find completely unconvincing? Can you briefly explain why?

"There must be a God for there to be objective God and evil" (and other morality type arguments). This breaks down for me as the morality of biblical times isn't that of now. Additionally, God kills but it is somehow ok because He did it.

"If there is no God then what's the point of life" I reject the idea that an outside person it being should define you. I define what the point of my life is and so should you. If you choose to make that faith then that is your choice.

"We are created. The odds of a fine tuned environment is nearly impossible" - Then who created the creator? Is the lack of evidence of life beyond earth evidence that we might be that bizarrely lucky one in a billion occurrence?

4) Are there any misconceptions that you find that theists / religious people often have about atheism / atheists, which you often find yourself having to explain?

A) I'm not angry at God, that would require belief.
B) It is possible for some people to be moral without belief. If the fear of punishment is why you are God then you aren't.
C) I don't know how the universe or life started and neither do you (imo). I don't know know what happens after death either.
D) The New Atheist are as representative of most atheist as WBC or (random antagonistic preacher) is of Christianity.

5) Do you feel that being an atheist improves your life in some way? (eg. does it help you to be more moral, give you a sense of purpose, inspire you?) Or is it just an absence of God, with no significance for you, as not fishing is to a person who doesn't go fishing?

It slightly improved my life by freeing my weekend from scheduling commitments of church plus it makes life more special to me by making it finite (as opposed to "everlasting life"). Other than that it is a mere absence of the supernatural with little significance.

Thanks, I look forward to learning from your responses.

Roonwit

I'd like to add that over the years I've come to realize that atheism isn't for everyone. Faith is central to many people's lives, identity, and sense of purpose & morality. I also hold out the unlikely possibility that maybe I lack a 6th sense for spiritual awareness that almost believers must have. Perhaps in the way a blind man would argue that colors aren't real.

 

[Ana the Ist]

BO?

Lol body odor

 

[quatona]

Lol body odor

Yeah, TrueAtheists smell funny.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Questions:

1) Have you always been an atheist, or did you become one? If you became one, could you outline the journey that brought you to atheism. If you have always been an atheist, could you outline the influences that brought that about (eg. the attitudes of family, friends, teachers, etc towards theistic belief).

My family has never been super religious, however when I was young we went to the local Presbyterian church every Sunday up until I was roughly 10 years old. I did the whole Sunday school thing, and genuinely believed what I had been taught.

I never put too much thought into religion or the existence of god through my teenage years, but that's partially the culture in which I live in here as well. Religion just isn't spoken about all that much in this area.

Still though, by 15-16 I labelled myself as agnostic. However, at that time I also was going by the incorrect definitions of atheism being a conviction that god doesn't exist, and agnosticism being a middle ground between theism and atheism. So, by proper definitions I would have actually become an atheist around that time, although I wasn't actually aware of it, nor identified as such since I had a misunderstanding of what the label meant

When I was 17 my first serious girlfriend actually went to the same church I used to go to as a kid, she invited me to go along with them, and so I did. I got involved with the youth group, and actually played clarinet during some of the services. It was actually quite a lot of fun. When sitting there listening to the minister giving his sermon though, I clearly remembering thinking to myself "how do we know this is true" or "how do we know this stuff actually happened"? That was pretty well my first desire to actually look closely into the claims of the religion to see if they were actually true or not.

My girlfriend and I split a few months later and I stopped going, however that desire to look into religion stuck with me. At the time however it was the late 90s, the internet wasn't nearly what it was today, and I didn't really have anywhere to look. I did read the bible cover to cover, however honestly that made me even more skeptical of Christianity, but that was my only resource available to me.

At that point I hadn't heard a single argument from the atheist position, I didn't even know what atheism was by it's proper definition. When I heard the word atheist I pictured those weird kids on the school yard that dressed all in black and wore trench coats. I just knew I didn't find Christianity all that believable.

So, for a few years it just remained something that was an interest to me. In my early 20s, I was on a date with a girl and we stopped into a local bookstore. She recommended I read a book by some guy I had never heard of named Richard Dawkins called the God Delusion. I bought the book, and actually didn't get around to reading it for a few months. When I decided to pick it up it was absolutely mind blowing. I had never read an actual counter-argument to Christianity or religion in general, and when I read what he had to say, it just made sense. On that note, that's when I actually learned what an atheist is, and I started identifying myself as such.

By that point (the mid 2000s) the internet was a lot more developed, so I jumped back into the issue with two feet. I could look up and research arguments from both sides, I could look into history, the background of religion, logic, critical thinking, etc. The more I read, the more the theistic arguments looked weak and fallacious.

Since that time it's remained a fascination, I've continued to read other books on the issue, both from a theistic and atheistic perspective, and obviously I debate a lot online about it

As for my family, as I said we never were super religious. We don't ever really talk about religion, just because the topic never really comes up. I suspect my Dad is also a non believer, and my mom is probably best described as an agnostic theist.

I noticed at Christmas dinner this year my entire family was over and nobody bothered to say grace before eating, which they usually did in the past. Now that I think about it, if I go back about 15 years, the grace was almost a prayer, 5 years ago we still said grace but it had no religious connotation, and this year they skipped it altogether. So, I suspect they're probably skeptics like I am as well... but I can't say for sure. All I can say is that they aren't religious.

2) Have you ever come close or given serious consideration to abandoning atheism? If so, what were the reasons / arguments that you found most convincing for theism / religion?

Since I started identifying as an atheist, I can't recall any time that I've come close to readopting a theistic belief. As I mentioned above, I was already fairly skeptical of Christianity and theism in general before I had even heard arguments from the atheistic side of the debate.

The closest I could say I have come was back in the early days when I was coming across arguments I'd never heard before as to why there is a god, but with those I withheld judgment before I could assess both arguments fairly, but I never found an argument that was convincing.

3) What arguments for theism / religion do you hear a lot but find completely unconvincing? Can you briefly explain why?

Plenty

The argument from design, the fine tuning argument, the Kalam cosmological argument, the moral argument, the "how did this all get here" argument, etc.

As for why, they all either rest on a logical fallacy or don't point to a god.

4) Are there any misconceptions that you find that theists / religious people often have about atheism / atheists, which you often find yourself having to explain?

Two probably:

1) Atheism is not the conviction that there is absolutely no god
2) Atheists can be completely moral people without a belief in your god. In fact, I don't see what religion has to do with morality or forming a moral basis at all.

5) Do you feel that being an atheist improves your life in some way? (eg. does it help you to be more moral, give you a sense of purpose, inspire you?) Or is it just an absence of God, with no significance for you, as not fishing is to a person who doesn't go fishing?

Yes I do.

Usually adhering to a religion requires to you accept some kind of dogma which isn't rationally justified. Sometimes that dogma says good things, and in those cases, that causes no direct harm. However, other parts of that dogma has negative effects. For example, the longstanding anti-Semitism in Europe for centuries was based on the unjustified claims in a book (i.e. The Jews killed Jesus). The current anti-gay sentiment found in many places in the United States is also largely rooted in what's written in a book, which nobody can show is actually speaking the truth.

By not adhering to any form of dogma, I am freeing myself from those negative consequences. Good things I can accept on their own merits, and bad things I can fight against based on their own merits as well.

Also, it's not an effect of atheism per se, but it always helps to think critically and skeptically of any unjustified claims. It'll go a long way towards safeguarding myself from being scammed by some con man down the road.

My rejection of theism has also made me infinitely more curious about how the universe around me actually works. As I've dropped away from religion, I've also become far more interested in science, and know a lot more than I would have otherwise. I believe theism, especially fundamentalism puts a brake on investigating that sort of thing.... if you start with the belief that god did everything, then what's the point of investigating it?

Lastly, I think it's always an advantage to have your beliefs as much in line with reality as possible. Everyone's going to be wrong about something, however the more things you are correct about, and the fewer incorrect beliefs you have will only serve you well going forward in life.

Thanks, I look forward to learning from your responses.

Roonwit

Not a problem, thanks for taking the time to try to understand us atheists better!

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm not sure where is best to put this thread, but this seems as good a place as any. I don't intend this to be a debate thread. Instead, I would like to understand atheists and atheism better, because I think we Christians often believe we know all about atheism, when actually we don't. So I'd like to learn about it from people who actually hold this view.

For the purposes of this thread, an 'atheist' can be defined as anyone who lives their life without reference to God, regardless of whether this is because they believe there is no God, don't know whether there is a God, or don't care about God. If you are in that category, I'd really like to hear from you.

Questions:

1) Have you always been an atheist, or did you become one? If you became one, could you outline the journey that brought you to atheism. If you have always been an atheist, could you outline the influences that brought that about (eg. the attitudes of family, friends, teachers, etc towards theistic belief).

2) Have you ever come close or given serious consideration to abandoning atheism? If so, what were the reasons / arguments that you found most convincing for theism / religion?

3) What arguments for theism / religion do you hear a lot but find completely unconvincing? Can you briefly explain why?

4) Are there any misconceptions that you find that theists / religious people often have about atheism / atheists, which you often find yourself having to explain?

5) Do you feel that being an atheist improves your life in some way? (eg. does it help you to be more moral, give you a sense of purpose, inspire you?) Or is it just an absence of God, with no significance for you, as not fishing is to a person who doesn't go fishing?

Thanks, I look forward to learning from your responses.

Roonwit

1, yes, although at various points in my life I have believed in some rather strange things, deities were never one of them.

2, I try to shake it constantly, belief just doesn't work that way. I have been seeking belief for 6 years now, and no luck thus far.

3, there are too many to list, but my least favorite are those which basically assume I am actively choosing to be an atheist.

4, tons.

5, no, why would it make my life better?