questions and hell

[icedtea]

Hi. After some questions in another thread I am here for answers.
I once inquired at a local SDA church and the man who came from there gave me pamphlets claiming they didn't believe in Hell.
If anyone can teach me here, I don't know too much about your beliefs. All i know is you worship on Saturday!
So thank you.

 

[Windmill]

Hell will exist but does not exist today and never will be eternal
​

First of all-

What is the result of sin?

The result of sin is death, as shown by the verse below-

[bible]Romans 6:23[/bible]

Those who die as sinners have the wages of sin on their shoulders- and that is death. Not torture.

[bible]John 3:16[/bible]

Perish. They shall not perish but have everlasting life.

These two verses also show, therefore, that those who aren’t saved can’t be alive. They must die, for only those who are saved have eternal life! Yet, the idea of hell being eternal means the people must be tortured forever and ever and never die. And what is death?

[bible]Ecclesiastes 9:5-6[/bible]

Death is a state where you know nothing. You just basically cease to exist. Though that is another subject entirely.

So, moving along. Lets revise whats been shown so far:

1) The consequence of sin is death not eternal torture.
2) Only saved people live forever.
3) Death is a state in which you know nothing- you just cease to exist.

Okay. Now, onto the next subject.

What is hell then?

Hell is quite simply this. Yes- it is the seperation of Man from God- remember, Jesus experienced it on the cross for us W

hile they’re being separated from God, they will also be thrown into fire. Well, fire shall come down and devour them, which, is basically throwing them into fire- like when you “throw someone into a situation” when all you merely do is place them in it, that’s what Gods doing here with the fire,

[bible]Revelation 20:9[/bible]

See? Fire shall come down and devour them. Also, this means therefore its happening on earth, as shown by the verse before it-

[bible]Revelation 20:8[/bible]

So this fire shall take place on earth.

[bible]Matthew 13:40-42[/bible]

So, at the end of the world, this shall take place.

[bible]John 12:48[/bible]

The end of the world is the judgement day.

[bible]2 Peter 3:10[/bible]

This verse shows us that fire will be all over the earth… and its going to be pretty hot, too.

So as God is destroying these people, he will be basically forsaking them right?

forsaken
adj

Definition: abandoned

And- well, that’s extremely painful, as that’s pretty much what killed Jesus so the seperation of man from God can’t be fun, though neither can really really hot flames O____O

So, lets recap what we’ve learnt so far.

1) The consequences of sin is death and is most certainly not torture.
2) Those who are saved are the ones who shall have eternal life
3) Death is when you cease to exist
4) Hell is when you’re seperated from God- Jesus went through it on the cross.
5) The people will be seperated from God- for they shall be abandoned to die.
6) Sinners will be destroyed by fire
7) The fire will be on earth
8) They will be destroyed on the judgement day- after the 1000 years in heaven.

So there ya have it. That’s what hell is

The "adventist difference" tends to be more than just us keeping the sabbath day

 

[icedtea]

Hm. Are there not verses which say people will be punished forever?
Eternal torment?
The great white throne judgment?
Those who take the mark of the beast will drink of the wrath of God forever?

Food for thought.
What else do you believe?

 

[tall73]

Hm. Are there not verses which say people will be punished forever?
Eternal torment?
The great white throne judgment?
Those who take the mark of the beast will drink of the wrath of God forever?

Revelation 20:10 (NIV):

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

There is no mention of a soul here. The whole thing is thrown in. Also the people thrown into the lake of fire come not just from Hades, but from death and Hades and the sea. As with the rest of the Bible, we see a unity between body and soul. Or as we find, man is a soul.

Jesus said that the soul would be destroyed in hell:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


Moreover, the word aiwn, rendered here as forever is used in more than one way. In fact, at one time it says that the one who sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this aion or the next. It means ages. The NT speaks of this age, the next age, the consumation of the age, etc. How can forever have a consumation?

In the Septuagint we see that they understood it differently, too. Jonah said he was in the whale for an age. Was he really there forever? This, too, is determined by the context.

So the term would actually refer to them being tormented for a time, probably a rather long time, given that it says ages of ages, and then eventually being destroyed. This would fit better with the whole picture of Scripture, which I will cover below. It would also make more sense of Jesus' saying don't worry about him who can kill the body but can't kill the soul, but worry about him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

In fact, there is some evidence that there are different degrees of punishment. Jesus said it would be more tolerable for Sodom than for Capernaum.

We also have supporting evidence in the text itself:

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Could God say that if there was a whole place dedicated to eternal pain?

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Bible calls this the second death. The Bible speaks consistently of death being a sleep.

In the beginning God said that the punishment for sin was quite clear--death. "The day you eat of it you shall surely die."



In fact I would submit that hell is not a separate place at all. Hell is the old earth, which is consumed by fire, and the new takes its place when the process is done.

Note the evidence.

a. In Revelation, as soon as the second-death section is complete, the new earth comes, and there is no more pain or dying.

b. Peter speaks of this as well:

2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Again, in line with the thought that men will be destroyed in the hell which is this old earth being consumed away.

These texts, in addition to the ones above that speak of destruction, the new earth, etc. make it clear that hell does have an end.

Revelation 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name. "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty.

Not only that but this is in line with all the texts that speak of

a. the soul dying

Ezekiel 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son‑‑both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Psalm 26:9 Do not take away my soul along with sinners, my life with bloodthirsty men.

Psalm 116:8 For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling.

Proverbs 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

b. conditional immortality--i.e., only those who get the gift have eternal life:

Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Genesis 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Now that last text makes it about as plain as you can get.

Yes, the wicked will suffer. Yes they will be punished with fire. Yes it will be miserable. But no it won't be forever, and the Bible never says it will be just some detached soul. In the end, the one who believes in Jesus will have life. And the one who does not will not have life. They will cease to be.

God is also just. Those who are more wicked will suffer more, apparently.

God is not interested in quarantining sin to one part of the universe. He is destroying it. He is making all things new.

Note also this text, which speaks to the question of where the dead are until the judgment. I think you will find that when you look at the details you will find it quite clear as well.

1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Here Paul clearly hinges our hope not on the departure of the soul, but on the resurrection of the dead. He says those who have fallen asleep, if there is no resurrection of the dead are LOST. Not that they just won't have a body. In fact, if we are free spirits, having a great old time, why would we want our body back? The whole NT speaks over and over again of the hope of the resurrection. Then he goes on to say when that resurrection will happen--when Jesus comes.

 

[icedtea]

Interesting. I will have to read more.

 

[tall73]

Interesting. I will have to read more.

You might check out these lessons. They have text, audio and video and cover a wide array of topics from the Adventist perspective.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp

For an in-depth look at the issue of hell, immortality of the soul etc. check out this book by Bacchiocchi.

http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/immorres.pdf

For an evangelical book that takes a scholarly approach try Fudg'es book, "The Fire that Consumes."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0853645876/103-9197669-2908646?v=glance&n=283155

God bless!

 

[OntheDL]

Interesting. I will have to read more.

Hi,

The word hell is translated from Hebrew word 'sheol' in OT and Greek word 'hades' in NT.

sheol in Hebrew means the grave, the place of the dead, nothing more.

Do we not say "I'll love you forever"? It doesn't mean for eternity, but as long as we live.

The bible does not talk about infinite judgment, rather the judgment itself is eternal.

Eternal burning hell is a Hellenistic concept that God is a severe God who needs constant appeasement. If God punishes a sinner of finite amount of sins with infinite punishment, is He a just God? Not the God we read about in the Bible who came to die for us?

If a person does not chose to accept Jesus' gift, the person will be destroyed in the end but not tormented for all eternity. The seperation from God will be eternal.

Hope this helps,