Questions about the catechism regarding purgatory

[BNR32FAN]

in the Roman catechism concerning purgatory it says.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

I have several questions about this.

1. What does this mean by conversion and wouldn’t this “complete purification” also be obtained by simply confession?
2. If the person is still alive wouldn’t fervent charity also be just as temporary as confession in the sense that if the person sinned after giving charity those sins still remain just like if a person sins after confession?
3. Does this mean fervent charity pays for sins in advance that we have not yet committed?
4. If a person is dead can someone do fervent charity on their behalf so that their sins will be forgiven? If so where can I find that I’m the scriptures?

 

[bcbsr]

in the Roman catechism concerning purgatory it says.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

I have several questions about this.

1. What does this mean by conversion and wouldn’t this “complete purification” also be obtained by simply confession?
2. If the person is still alive wouldn’t fervent charity also be just as temporary as confession in the sense that if the person sinned after giving charity those sins still remain just like if a person sins after confession?
3. Does this mean fervent charity pays for sins in advance that we have not yet committed?
4. If a person is dead can someone do fervent charity on their behalf so that their sins will be forgiven? If so where can I find that I’m the scriptures?

It seems the questions are directed to Catholics, so it might be better to post to one of their forums. But as it is in this forum in which others, like myself can post, then I would wonder how Catholics can believe that being tortured makes a person into a better person. If that's the case in the afterlife, then why don't Catholics set up torture chambers to make Catholics into better Catholics?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It seems the questions are directed to Catholics, so it might be better to post to one of their forums. But as it is in this forum in which others, like myself can post, then I would wonder how Catholics can believe that being tortured makes a person into a better person. If that's the case in the afterlife, then why don't Catholics set up torture chambers to make Catholics into better Catholics?

It’s in controversial Christian theology. So I think it’s ok to post it here. Catholicism is Christian and the topic is controversial theology.

 

[bcbsr]

It’s in controversial Christian theology. So I think it’s ok to post it here. Catholicism is Christian and the topic is controversial theology.

Granted. Though expect responses from non-Catholics. Now you quoted Catholic sources, and the only reference noted in those quotes allegedly support Purgatory is 1Cor 3:15. I read 1Cor 3:11-15 much different than Catholics.

1Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

As I read it, it is not the person himself who is set on fire, but rather his works. It's like one's house burning down, the owner himself escaping, but unburned. This actually fits into the New Covenant scenario, which says, "I will remember their sins no more." Heb 8:12 That is the history of one's sins are burned up, being forgotten, in accordance with the New Covenant promise. The loss is the loss of potential rewards which could have been gain during those times one sinned.

That I see as a clear reading of the text whereas the Catholic purgatorial scenario is really not supported from the text if one exercises basic reading comprehension skills.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Granted. Though expect responses from non-Catholics. Now you quoted Catholic sources, and the only reference noted in those quotes allegedly support Purgatory is 1Cor 3:15. I read 1Cor 3:11-15 much different than Catholics.

1Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

As I read it, it is not the person himself who is set on fire, but rather his works. It's like one's house burning down, the owner himself escaping, but unburned. This actually fits into the New Covenant scenario, which says, "I will remember their sins no more." Heb 8:12 That is the history of one's sins are burned up, being forgotten, in accordance with the New Covenant promise. The loss is the loss of potential rewards which could have been gain during those times one sinned.

That I see as a clear reading of the text whereas the Catholic purgatorial scenario is really not supported from the text if one exercises basic reading comprehension skills.

11-15 is a parable my friend. A parable is used to support a topic or discussion that is already being discussed. With that said we should read verses 1-10 to find the context of 11-15. I absolutely agree that it is the works that are tested by fire not the believer and the believer is saved regardless if his works survive the fire or not meaning he is a believer. The whole idea that Jesus’ sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins is incorrect. Nowhere does it say we must confess every sin in order to be forgiven.