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Questions about the Baha'i

smaneck

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I'm missing your point... I have read that Bahais say that only messengers receive Scripture, and prophets don't.

I've heard Baha'is make that argument, but I didn't make it. Nor do I believe the reverse is true as you seem to be asserting. My understanding is that the primary function of prophets is to bring "glad tidings and a warning."

While Messengers recite/tell the Scripture, teach the Scripture, confirm the Scripture...

Every new revelation confirms the old.


Every revelation is complete. When Jesus was on the cross He said, "It is finished" and Christians take this to mean no more revelation after Christ. It is just another way of tying up the Hand of the God.
 
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Arthra

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Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan has revealed the following:


Although the commentators of the Qur'án have related in divers manners the circumstances attending the revelation of this verse, yet thou shouldst endeavour to apprehend the purpose thereof. He saith: How false is that which the Jews have imagined! How can the hand of Him Who is the King in truth, Who caused the countenance of Moses to be made manifest, and conferred upon Him the robe of Prophethood -- how can the hand of such a One be chained and fettered? How can He be conceived as powerless to raise up yet another Messenger after Moses? Behold the absurdity of their saying; how far it hath strayed from the path of knowledge and understanding!

Observe how in this day also, all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities. For over a thousand years they have been reciting this verse, and unwittingly pronouncing their censure against the Jews, utterly unaware that they themselves, openly and privily, are voicing the sentiments and belief of the Jewish people! Thou art surely aware of their idle contention, that all Revelation is ended, that the portals of Divine mercy are closed, that from the day-springs of eternal holiness no sun shall rise again, that the Ocean of everlasting bounty is forever stilled, and that out of the Tabernacle of ancient glory the Messengers of God have ceased to be made manifest.


~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 135
 
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smaneck

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33:40 Muhammad is not the father of (any) one of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing.

Mistranslation. Khatam Nabi means Seal of the Prophets, not last of them.

`Á'ish said, a"Say [that the Prophet is] the seal of the prophets and do not say that there is no prophet after him" (Al-Suyúti)

5:3 … This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion...

And when Jesus was on the cross he said, "It is finished" which Christians have taken to be the end of revelation as well. There is no justification for either position.

8:109 "Say, `If every ocean become ink for the words of my Lord, surely, the ocean would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though WE brought the like thereof as further help.'"

45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what speech/information after Allah and His verses will they believe?

40:34
“And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.”

But keep tying up the Hand of God. See where it gets you.
 
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Mar 21, 2013
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Mumin,

I've read your quotes and they read to me very much like the citations from the Torah that Jews use to indicate why Jesus couldn't be a legitimate prophet, and passages from the New Testament that Christians use to indicate why Muhammad couldn't be a legitimate messenger from God.

Quran 33:62 is particularly interesting reading:

"Such was the way of God aforetime and no change wilt thou find in the way of God".

Well, what was the way of God aforetime? To periodically send a Message whenever humanity strayed far from the path and was in need of a guidance and a warning.

I would submit to you that humanity has indeed strayed far from the path of God in this Day. Also including many of those who claim to follow Muhammad.
 
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smaneck

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he is the seal of the Prophets, so the last. You didn't even comment on the other 13 verses that support it.

Seal and last are two very different words. You presented an interpretation as the text itself.

I've searched that "hadith" on Google, only Bahai sites, looks like a fabrication. And I have searched "Al-Suyuti", he is a scholar from 15th century...

You'll find it referred to in an academic publication. I'm getting my taxes done right now so I can't look it up right now.

I have posted the verse which contradicts the Christian position. One Scripture is preserved, not the other.

Didn't you insist that Allah's ways don't change? Why did He preserve one scripture and not the other?

40:34 And Joseph had already come to you before...

Before Muhammad (pbuh)

So you are trying to tell us that now suddenly Allah changed His way?
I don't buy it. The Qur'an would have never revealed this ayat, which is not found in the Bible, except to insure that Muslims don't repeat it.
 
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smaneck

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The verses about His way, tell about striving/fighting/emigrating/spending
The verses about "perfected" tell about Religion/verses/Book.
The verses about "completed" tell about His word/His favor.

Says who? I think they are all about the way God reveals Himself.
 
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AskTheFamily

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When did Aisha become an authority on Quran? The one who fought who the Quran commanded to obey, the one who fought who the Quran declared our master, the one who fought who was the Aeron of Mohammad, the who fought the door to the house of wisdom, the one who fought who the wage of the message was to love which was said to take a path to God.

What does she have to do with Quran. There is mutuwatir hadith which even Baha'allah unknowingly or knowingly acknowledged by authenticating Du'a nudba that the Nabi said "You are to me as Aeron is to Moses except that there is no Prophet after me".
 
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AskTheFamily

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Says who? I think they are all about the way God reveals Himself.

God's way is always to help his religion with his friends. Although Prophethood ended, the witnesses and Imams for each day and age continued.

Imam Mahdi ultimately is the one who will unite all people under God's Wilayah. But the Quran being protected remains as a sufficient clarification and reminder.

So while revelation ended, his sunnah of guiding did not, just as he sent a succession of messengers after Moses, he appoint a succession of Imams after Mohammad.

The world of course needs an Imam, but the world needs to recognize their need of God and his chosen guide...

The logic that the believer showed regarding waiting for Moses and saying there is no Messenger...does apply to this nation...but as Prophethood ended, it means we should not say God will not appoint an Imam as God never stated he ended Imammate. So in the same way they saying there is no Messenger with no proof...stating there is no Imam after Mohammad with no proof and that God will not appoint another guide is the way of misguidance.

God will unite humanity on his guidance surely - through Imam Mahdi, so he is like Musa freeing the world from oppression and the Pharaohs of their time.

The Sunnah of God has not changed. And as for the words of God, there is another mystic interpretation, that this doesn't even referring to God talking but his revelation in his light and his words in his light, as we say that God made Imams the mines of his words in ziyarah.

From misbahal hidiya:

Know, O spiritual friend, may God give you success in
attaining His pleasure and place you and us among those who
witness His names and attributes, that this vicegerency is one of
the greatest affairs of Divinity, one of the noblest stations of
Lordship, the gate to the gates of manifestation and existence,
the key to the keys of the unseen and the visible, and the station
of ‘withness’ (maqām al-‘indiyyah), in which lie the treasures of
the Unseen, which no one knows except Him.46 Through It the
names became manifest after they had been inward and the
attributes came out after they had been hidden. This is the
greatest veil by which every young and old is annihilated and by
whose presence every rich and poor is absorbed. This is an
endless space, above the Throne (al-‘arsh), in which there is
neither vacuity nor plenum. These are the august glories of His
face; were they to lift the veils of light and darkness, they would
burn up everyone whose eyesight perceived it.47 So glory be to
God, how great is His worth, how splendid His station, how
noble His face, and how lofty His sovereignty. He is the Allholy,
the Glorified, the Lord of the heavens of the names and the
earths of creation. Isn’t it strange how a bat wishes to praise the
sun of the rising suns, and (how) a chameleon desires to describe
the bright overwhelming dawn?! How incapable are the pen and
the words and how dull are the heart and the tongue!48
قل لو آان البحر مداداً لكمات ربّي لنفد البحر قبل أن تنفد آلمات ربّي.
Say, ‘If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the
sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were
exhausted.49
How should then be the case with the origin of the words
and the source of the signs! For the oceans of existence and the
pens of the world of the unseen and the visible fail to describe
any of His self-disclosures. How splendid is His proof and how
great His sovereignty!
 
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smaneck

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I would agree that Aisha is a somewhat dubious source from the standpoint of Shi'ism. Still, she did spend a great deal of time with the Prophet and had no cause to keep the door open to future revelation if it wasn't accurate.

There is mutuwatir hadith which even Baha'allah unknowingly or knowingly acknowledged by authenticating Du'a nudba that the Nabi said "You are to me as Aeron is to Moses except that there is no Prophet after me".

And it is in similar context that I think Muhammad was saying he was the Seal of the Prophets. The Hebrew people saw prophethood as being passed from father to son or teacher to disciple. Muhammad is insisting that this won't happen in his Dispensation, not with Zayd, not with Ali. But I don't think he was inferring an end to revelation. In the context of the Qur'an as a whole, that just doesn't make sense.
 
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AskTheFamily

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What does the phrase "there is no Prophet after me" mean? It means there is no Prophet.

The end of revelation makes sense because why?

First because the religion will dominate all religions. The Quran even says there will be no people of the book but that will believe in Jesus before the day of judgement.

As we know if the day of judgement was Baha'allah's revelation, then that didn't happen.

Isa is going to return, and Imam Mahdi is going to return, so while a revelation won't come, guidance will come to people.

The Quran being protected - means - God didn't just end revelation without providing humanity with revelation. The Sunnah is to provide revelation to humanity and he is doing that.

Victory will occur and the world will unite on the truth, the Mahdi is promised to bring a justice to the world by mutuwatir hadiths.

So this showing that God is not not bestowing grace, but that there is wisdom in ending revelation - to bring about a return to the true interpretation of the Quran.

Has God provided a book of guidance?

Yes.
Has he closed the door of guidance. No, there is still Imam Mahdi and Jesus who will return.

The world will benefit from the knowledge and wisdom of Imam Mahdi and will he open them the gates towards the treasured knowledge of the Prophets.

This shows God's hands are not cut off. And Imam Mahdi will rule the earth as long as God wants.

Aisha being controlled by the devil it would not surprise me if she uttered such words of ignorance from her conjecture.
 
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Arthra

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Ask the Family wrote:

God didn't just end revelation without providing humanity with revelation.

Has God provided a book of guidance?

Yes.
Has he closed the door of guidance. No, there is still Imam Mahdi and Jesus who will return.


Thanks for your post ..!

I'm pleased to hear your statements ..It sounds like some of your anxieties about your faith are being resolved at long last.

Baha'is agree that God still provides revelation and guidance...and that the prophecies of the Imam Mahdi.. The return of the twelfth Imam has been fulfilled as well as the prophecies re. the return of Jesus...

This was what the Babi/Baha'i movement in the nineteenth century was about.

You can read more about it at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Bahá'í_Faith
 
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smaneck

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Imam Mahdi ultimately is the one who will unite all people under God's Wilayah. But the Quran being protected remains as a sufficient clarification and reminder.

I presume you know what Baha'is believe about the Imam Mahdi?


Who wrote that?
 
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