Questions about the Baha'i

[Arthra]

Niblo above quoted a passage from a "sermon" of Imam Ali:

According to the Imam, Muhammad is ‘the last of those who preceded him’…‘the last of the Prophets’. There is no ambiguity here.

There is also the following which is a Ziyarah of Imam Ali

"Muhammad the Sealer of what preceded Him and the Initiator of that which was to come."

It also expressed this way:

"who sealed the previous Messages, paved the way to the coming blessings"

The above is from the book of Mafatih al Jinan, by Qomi to be found on p. 132 vol. 2 of the Mafatih Al-Jinan..second printing 2010.

It is referred to in the Lawh-i-Ayyub revealed by Baha'u'llah in 1863.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

I don't think there is an equivalent of textual scholarship--as it has been conducted in the West--in the Islamic countries.

The current western scholarship is largely based on Islamic scholarship, from centuries ago. At one time there was intense interest among Islamic scholars about the history of the Quranic text and the relationships between the various forms in which it was transmitted. This changed in my view for two reasons: (1) the success of the Egyptian 1921 edition as the standard edition, and the very high standard of that text (based on precisely the scholarship I have mentioned), has removed the variants from the sight of ordinary believers more or less, and moved the topic down the research agenda, and (2) Islamic cultures have entered a defensive phase, because of the encounter with the west, which has led to a thirst for absolute certainties and a lack of tolerance for questions that touch the core beliefs and texts. Where some Islamic scholars have taken approaches such as literary criticism, they are at risk of vigilante attacks or government persecution, and in all the case I can think of, they have moved to the West.

 

[dlamberth]

influenced?

I'm unable to think of a single religion that has not been influenced in some way by another religion. Maybe someone here can, but I sure can't. That's just the way of things.

.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think Catholics have 7 books more than Protestants

In their Old Testament. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants all have 27 books that make up the New Testament.

The Gospel according to St. Matthew
The Gospel according to St. Mark
The Gospel according to St. Luke
The Gospel according to St. John
The Acts of the Apostles
St. Paul's epistle to the Romans
St. Paul's epistles to the Corinthians, 1 & 2
St. Paul's epistle to the Galatians
St. Paul's epistle to the Ephesians
St. Paul's epistle to the Philippians
St. Paul's epistle to the Colossians
St. Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians, 1 & 2
St. Paul's epistles to St. Timothy, 1 & 2
St. Paul's epistle to St. Titus
St. Paul's epistle to St. Philemon
Epistle to the Hebrews
Epistle of St. James
1 & 2 Epistles of St. Peter
1, 2, & 3 Epistles of St. John
Epistle of St. Jude
The Revelation of St. John

That's twenty-seven books which are the same in every Christian New Testament regardless of church or denomination today.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Niblo]

Niblo above quoted a passage from a "sermon" of Imam Ali:

According to the Imam, Muhammad is ‘the last of those who preceded him’…‘the last of the Prophets’. There is no ambiguity here.

There is also the following which is a Ziyarah of Imam Ali

"Muhammad the Sealer of what preceded Him and the Initiator of that which was to come."

It also expressed this way:

"who sealed the previous Messages, paved the way to the coming blessings"

The above is from the book of Mafatih al Jinan, by Qomi to be found on p. 132 vol. 2 of the Mafatih Al-Jinan..second printing 2010.

It is referred to in the Lawh-i-Ayyub revealed by Baha'u'llah in 1863.

Hello Art.

Abbass Qumi was a Twelver. They believe that the sermons of Imam Ali (Radi Allahu ‘anhu) are authentic. As far as they are concerned, when the Imam says (repeatedly, and with no contradiction in any of his 239 sermons; in his letters; or in any other of his written works) that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the last of the prophets then he is the last of the prophets. Sunnis agree with this.

This may well be a problem for some; but it is not a problem for the Muslims.

You have a good day now.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Nahjul balagha is not necessarily all authentic. It was collected purely to show superior form of eloquence of Imam Ali, while the authenticity of the reports had nothing to do with it.

 

[Niblo]

Nahjul balagha is not necessarily all authentic. It was collected purely to show superior form of eloquence of Imam Ali, while the authenticity of the reports had nothing to do with it.

Thank you. What is your opinion of Imam Ali's statements, as quoted in an earlier post?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Thank you. What is your opinion of Imam Ali's statements, as quoted in an earlier post?

I don't know ilmel rijaal to check the other sources for the sermons (a lot of the sermons of nahjul balagha are found in other books with authentic chains) but they are according to the Quran and there is nothing wrong with the content.

A mutuwatir saying that is not ambiguous is the saying "You are to me as Harun is to Musa except there is no Prophet after me".

Baha'allah quoted Du'a Nudba and said that the du'a are the words of the Imams, and that Du'a has that saying.

 

[light upon light]

Hello Art.

Abbass Qumi was a Twelver. They believe that the sermons of Imam Ali (Radi Allahu ‘anhu) are authentic. As far as they are concerned, when the Imam says (repeatedly, and with no contradiction in any of his 239 sermons; in his letters; or in any other of his written works) that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the last of the prophets then he is the last of the prophets. Sunnis agree with this.

This may well be a problem for some; but it is not a problem for the Muslims.

You have a good day now.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah claim the station of - Manifestation of God, not that of prophet.

The word used in Arabic is "mazhar ilahi".

The prophets came to announce future coming of the great Day of God, when the world would be transformed into something so different it could not be imagined in past ages and centuries, except through analogy.

We are living in that great Day now, the evidences of transformation are all around us. And of course, there is great turmoil as well, as the old ways of understanding life no longer make sense, and humanity is collectively trying to understand life, our purpose, and our destiny, in a world that is almost unimaginably different from what it was like in the past.

 

[Arthra]

From my post above:

"Muhammad the Sealer of what preceded Him and the Initiator of that which was to come."

It also expressed this way:

"who sealed the previous Messages, paved the way to the coming blessings"

For Baha'is.. it means that the previous cycle has ended and a new cycle begun..

 

[smaneck]

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

And this differs from what Umar said how?

"Allah sent Muhammad to summon men and not to circumcise." (Ibn Jarir At-Tabari, Annales, vol. II, p. 1354)

 

[smaneck]

I read the day was Friday and the Jews differed with the prophet, they chose Saturday, consequently it was enforced strictly on them:
16:124 The sabbath was only appointed for those who differed over it. And indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.

First off there is no indication that they were differing with their prophet over this, only that they had differences with one another.

Second, there is no mention of Friday being the original Sabbath whatsoever. This sounds like pure speculation.

2:87 ... But is it (not) that every time a messenger came to you, (O children of Israel), with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party (of messengers) you denied and another party you killed.

Sorry, but that is an entirely different surah, not relevant to the issue of the Sabbath.

I believe it but with objections, the concept of “neighbor” was explained in the Bible, it is not “everybody”.

Have you ever heard the story of the Good Samaritan? If so, you missed the point. Replace Yazidi with Samaritan and you might get the point of the parable:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man [read Muslim] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest [read mufti] that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, [read Sayyid] when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan [read Yazidi] , as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Luke

 

[smaneck]

Hello Susan,

You claim there are: ‘many verses (in the Noble Qur’an) which condemn those who insist there aren't going to be any more prophets.’

I’ll be referring to the sermons of Imam ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib, as contained in the Nahj-ul Balāgha (a work considered authentic by Shias, but not by Sunnis). Since the Baha’i appear to favour the former over the latter I will argue from the Shia standpoint; and will assume that the reported words of the Imam are both authentic and accurate.

Hi Paul,

Baha'is tend to be somewhat dubious of the authenticity of hadith in general and I think the Nahj-ul Balagha would fall into that category. However, if you have been reading my posts carefully you would have noticed that while I insist on continuing revelation, I don't use the term nabi in referring to the Bab or Baha'u'llah. In fact Baha'u'llah states:

XXV. It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God's appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation "Seal of the Prophets" fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 60)

For Baha'is, this is not the Day of Prophecy it is the Day of Fulfillment.
You also might look at this Tablet from Baha'u'llah translated by the same man who wrote that Finality of Prophethood article I referred you to earlier:

Tablet to Hasan-i-Sháhábadí

 

[smaneck]

delete

 

[smaneck]

From Sermon 72:

‘My God, the Spreader of the surfaces (of earth) and Keeper (intact) of all skies, Creator of hearts on good and evil nature, send Thy choicest blessings and growing favours on Muhammad Thy servant and Thy Prophet who is the last of those who preceded (him).’

And from Sermon 87:

‘O people learn this saying of the last of the Prophets: “He who dies from among us is not dead, and he who decays (after dying) from among us does not really decay”. Do not say what you do not understand, because most of the Right is in what you deny.’

Comment:

According to the Imam, Muhammad is ‘the last of those who preceded him’…‘the last of the Prophets’. There is no ambiguity here.

I suspect if we were to look at the original text it would say 'seal' rather than 'last' however, Baha'u'llah does address the issue of 'last' as well. As you know the Bible refers to Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. In this context, Baha'u'llah says:

"From these statements therefore it hath been made evident and manifest that should a Soul in the “End that knoweth no end” be made manifest, and arise to proclaim and uphold a Cause which in “the Beginning that hath no beginning” another Soul had proclaimed and upheld, it can be truly declared of Him Who is the Last and of Him Who was the First that they are one and the same, inasmuch as both are the Exponents of one and the same Cause. For this reason, hath the Point of the Bayán [Bab]—may the life of all else but Him be His sacrifice!—likened the Manifestations of God unto the sun which, though it rise from the “Beginning that hath no beginning” until the “End that knoweth no end,” is none the less the same sun. Now, wert thou to say, that this sun is the former sun, thou speakest the truth; and if thou sayest that this sun is the “return” of that sun, thou also speakest the truth. Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term “last” is applicable to the “first,” and the term “first” applicable to the “last;” inasmuch as both the “first” and the “last” have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith.

Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" -- that is Adam -- in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."

The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people presume the terms "first" and "last" - when referring to God - glorified be His Name! - to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to this material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by "first" is meant no other than the "last" and by "last" no other than the "first."

Even as in the "Beginning that hath no beginnings" the term "last" is truly applicable unto Him who is the Educator of the visible and of the invisible, in like manner, are the terms "first" and "last" applicable unto His Manifestations. They are at the same time the Exponents of both the "first" and the "last." Whilst established upon the seat of the "first," they occupy the throne of the "last." Were a discerning eye to be found, it will readily perceive that the exponents of the "first" and the "last," of the "manifest" and the "hidden," of the "beginning" and the "seal" are none other than these holy Beings, these Essences of Detachment, these divine Souls. And wert thou to soar in the holy realm of "God was alone, there was none else besides Him," thou wilt find in that Court all these names utterly non-existent and completely forgotten. Then will thine eyes no longer be obscured by these veils, these terms, and allusions. How ethereal and lofty is this station, unto which even Gabriel, unshepherded, can never attain, and the Bird of Heaven, unassisted, can never reach!"

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 162-164)

‘Even when He made Adam die, He did not leave them without one who would serve among them as proof and plea for His Godhead, and serve as the link between them and His knowledge, but He provided to them the proofs through His chosen Messengers and bearers of the trust of His Message, age after age till the process came to end with our Prophet Muhammad - Allah may bless him and his descendants - and His pleas and warnings reached finality.’

And from Sermon 133:

‘The Book of Allah is among you. It speaks and its tongue does not falter. It is a house whose pillars do not fall down, and a power whose supporters are never routed. Allah deputised the Prophet after a gap from the previous prophets when there was much talk (among the people). With him Allah exhausted the series of prophets and ended the revelation.’

Comment:

The Imam confirms that the process of Prophethood - and the series of prophets - came to an end with Muhammad; and that the process of revelation has ended.

Those two would certainly be stronger evidence if their authenticity could be proven.

 

[smaneck]

And from Sermon 234:

‘May my father and my mother shed their lives for you, O Messenger of Allah! With your death the process of prophethood, revelation and heavenly messages has stopped, which had not stopped at the death of others (prophets).’

Comment:

This sermon was delivered when the Imam was busy at Muhammad’s funeral ablutions.

I think the context of that particular sermon may well indicate its meaning. The Qur'anic verse stating that Muhammad was the khatam nabi, clearly intended to indicate that would not be a continuing line of prophets from father to son or master to disciple as was sometimes the case in Judaism. For Ali then, and for the rest of the Companions revelation ended with Muhammad's passing. Had this principle not been accepted the unity of the community would have been utterly shattered, for every tribal shaman wanted to declare their own prophethood leading to the bloody Ridda Wars. Indeed, some scholars have argued that the current believe that there would be no more revelation period after Muhammad was born during this time.

 

[smaneck]

I think Catholics have 7 books more than Protestants

You're a bit confused. The 'extra books' in the Catholic Bible are the apocrypha books of the Old Testament that were written in Greek rather than Hebrew or Aramaic. There is a little variation within Christian sects regarding which Jewish books they accept as part of their scriptures. To my knowledge there is no disagreement whatsoever in regards to the canon New Testament. Modern scholarship may raise some questions regarding the authenticity of some of these texts (did Peter really write II Peter) but the canon remains unchanged.

 

[smaneck]

According to wikipedia, the canonical gospel were written in 4th century
, so you say the Apocryphal Gospels were written in 2nd and 3rd centuries, that is before the canonical ones. Wikipedia:
"Estimates for the dates when the canonical gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that"

Wiki is not saying that the gospel were not written until the 4th century, it is saying that the oldest surviving manuscript dates from then. The oldest complete copies of the Qur'an date from the 8th to the 9th century. That doesn't mean that the Qur'an was written until then!

 

[smaneck]

I know what I quoted, my intention was "surviving" ones (comparing the date of surviving canonical and surviving non-canonical), your post was excessive and you used inappropriate words:

And the oldest surviving copy of the Qur'an (as opposed to fragments) dates from the 8th and 9th century. What of it?

 

[smaneck]

Baha'is generally recognize the Gospels as accepted by the Christian church... You will find in the Baha'is Writings references to the various Gospels...

Baha'u'llah goes much further than that:

"Verily by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muḥammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God’s holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muḥammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of “perverting” the text was therefore pronounced against them. Likewise, it is clear, how in this day, the people of the Qur’án have perverted the text of God’s holy Book, concerning the signs of the expected Manifestation, and interpreted it according to their inclination and desires."

He further says:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"