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Paul,
Thanks for your post!
Yes... My intent was to share how we Baha'is view the prophecies.. that is, as historical movements that were inspired by prophecies... Both religions Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism share in varying degrees a messianic expectation...so the early nineteenth century in the West and in the Middle East there were parallel messianic movements.
In Iran/Iraq there was an expectation of the Mahdi..and for Shiahs more specifically this meant a return of the Twelfth Imam..as the Mahdi and Qa'im (He who would arise) and the return of Christ. For many this return was to have very literal physical signs..for the more mystical traditions this meant a spiritual or mystical revival.
The parallel in the West.was the Millerite movement that was mostly visible in the Eastern US with the expectation Christ would return and descend from the literal clouds in the sky etc.
Here's a statement from Abdul-Baha re. the Spirit of Christ:
THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST
The body is composed, in truth, of corporeal elements and every composition is necessarily subject to decomposition; but the spirit is an essence, simple, pure, spiritual, eternal, perpetual and divine. He who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His body hath, in truth, debased Him and hath gone astray from Him; but he who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His Spirit will grow from day to day in joy, attraction, zeal, proximity, perception and vision.
Thou hast then to seek the Spirit of Christ in this marvelous day. The heaven whither Christ ascended is not an infinite space. His heaven is much rather the kingdom of His Lord, the Munificent. As He said, "The Son of Man is in heaven." It is known then that His heaven is beyond the boundaries that surround existence and that He is elevated for the people who adore.
Pray God to ascend to this heaven, to taste of its food -- and know thou that the people have not understood to this day the mystery of the Holy Scriptures. They believe that Christ was deprived of His heaven when He was in this world, that He had fallen from the heights of His elevation and that later He ascended to this elevated pinnacle -- that is to say, towards the heaven which doth not exist, for there is only space. They expect that He will descend from this heaven seated upon a cloud. They believe that there is in the heavens a cloud upon which He will be seated and by which He will descend; while, in reality, the clouds are vapors which rise from the earth and which do not descend from the heavens. The cloud mentioned in the Holy Scriptures is the human body, because it is a veil for them, like a cloud, which prevents them from seeing the Sun of Truth which is shining in the horizon of Christ.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 388)
Baha'is view the above messianic movements as pointing to the announcement by Siyyid Ali Muhammad on May 23, 1844 in Shiraz as the Return. In the beginning some believed the Bab was simply claiming to be a Gate for the twelfth Imam that had been "hidden" or occulted for a thousand years since his disappearance around 260 AH. Later it became clear that the Bab claimed to be the Promised One...the Qa'im ... the Mahdi.
Now we Baha'is while acknowledging the above prophecies do not take them literally and we feel this literal view has beena stumbling block for many.
Generally Baha'is do accept the Shiah view of the history of early Islam..that the true successors to Islam after the passing of Prophet Muhammad were His cousin Ali ibn abi Talib and his descendents ...the Imams.. were the rightful successors ...rather than the Umayyad Caliphate. We don't accept all the views of Shiahs regarding the Imams or the views re. the Twelfth Imam that were miraculous...We acknowledge the prophecies.
Best wishes to you Paul!
- Art
Do Bahais have anything in common with Sunnis that they don't with Shias?
Paul,
Thanks for your post!
The Qur'an says “for you is your religion, and for me is my religion”, but Baha'is don't apply it on us. Then it's a matter of defense. because they quote verses and deliberately try to distort/corrupt them. While in fact the verses reject what they say.
It is necessary to clarify their use of the word prophet; an alien word when applied to the Arabic language; and especially so when it is used within the context of Islam. The correct words to use when applying the term prophet to the Noble Quran are Nabī and Rasūl.
In the Islamic context, a Nabī (Prophet) is a man sent by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) to provide guidance to humankind; but who is not given scripture. A Rasūl (Messenger) is also charge with providing guidance, but he is given scripture. All Rasūl are considered to be Nabī; but not all Nabī were Rasūl
Imam Ghazali was very well aware that if one relies on the words of a given revelation alone, then many possibilities of interpretation may exist; and that some these may seriously undermine the purpose of that revelation. He insisted that any interpretation must be measured against how it was understood in the Islamic community.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya (sorry Susan!) said of the Ashʿarīs:
The scholars are the helpers of the religious sciences, and the Ashʿarīs are the helpers of the fundamentals of the religion.
(Al-Fatawa, Vol. 4).
For over a thousand years the Muslims have held to the conviction that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the last of the Rasūl and of the Nabī, and they have done so in complete accord with the scholars of Islam.
Do Bahais have anything in common with Sunnis that they don't with Shias?
Sorry, to take so long to get back to you, Paul. I was wrapped up in end of semester tasks.
I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks.But to deny God's continuing revelation, it seems to me, is to fly in the face of the very essence of the Qur'an.
My tea is sitting right beside me and someone else is cutting my grass. But if I don't get working on my end-of-semester report I won't have a very pleasant meeting with the Dean tomorrow.
I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks.
I think the above quote from smaneck would be even more accurate if the words "the Qur'an" were replaced with the word "God or Allah".
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An essence of God is that He Creates. That's what God does. I see Continuing Revelation as an aspect of that Creating force that is God's nature. From there I don't need to jump very far to come to the conclusion that to deny God's Continuing Revelation is to deny the very essence of God and His Creating nature.I said Qur'an because there are so many verses which condemn those who insist there aren't going to be any more prophets. To take a single verse and use it to negate the rest of the Qur'an just doesn't make sense to me.
An essence of God is that He Creates. That's what God does. I see Continuing Revelation as an aspect of that Creating force that is God's nature. From there I don't need to jump very far to come to the conclusion that to deny God's Continuing Revelation is to deny the very essence of God and His Creating nature.
We look at Holy text for understanding, but is that the same as looking towards God for understanding?
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Which goes to the heart of why for the most part I have rejected those religions who depend upon words from books for their religion. I don't believe that revelation through words in book is the only way to know God. It can help. But eventually it seems to me that if that kind of revelation is the only way used for knowing God, that trajectory is going to limit ones awareness of God and the reality of God in their life. And in the end, all we do is argue over what has been revealed and by whom and how. Where this takes me is that I see revelation as the study about God but I'm more interested in the study of God.Personally I don't believe God Essence is knowable. What we know is what He chooses to reveal to us. For that reason we have to focus on His Revelation. What needs to be kept in mind is that every Revelation is in accordance with our own capacity not His infinite Being.
In the end, I tend to align myself with those who say that Nature is the ONLY Holy Text directly written directly by the hand of God. Being in nature together is often a place of unity.
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Which goes to the heart of why for the most part I have rejected those religions who depend upon words from books for their religion. I don't believe that revelation through words in book is the only way to know God.
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