Questions about Orthodoxy

Senkaku · Feb 23, 2018

@~Anastasia~ Thank you for your response. Wow, it sounds like you have been on quite the journey, you got me all curious now to see what happened to you. It does make me wonder though, You think this concept of going inward is a way to connect with the kingdom of God/Heaven that is within us as Jesus mentioned?

~Anastasia~ · Feb 23, 2018

Senkaku said:
@~Anastasia~ Thank you for your response. Wow, it sounds like you have been on quite the journey, you got me all curious now to see what happened to you. It does make me wonder though, You think this concept of going inward is a way to connect with the kingdom of God/Heaven that is within us as Jesus mentioned?

I might be willing to share a bit more, but probably only in generalities. I'm not entirely sure it's healthy when focusing on one person, but a knowledge of what kinds of things can happen is enlightening. I'll find a link for you that was very instructive to me and edit it in.

I'm going to have a hard time explaining well about the effects and aim. I want to say first that it is not an exclusive path to God as if no other can approach Him. Rather, it is a way of training our heart (for lack of a better word - I want to say that I am not experienced in talking about such things ... heart, nous, spirit ... these can get confusing and you need to know who you are reading and how they use these words) ...

But basically it's about training a part of the person to "pray without ceasing". There is a little book - The Way of the Pilgrim - that talks about this somewhat. I wouldn't use it as a "how to" though. The efforts are made hoping for constant prayer of the heart (even during sleep) and constant remembrance of God.

I would also mention the remembrance of God though. I haven't re-read the book since becoming Orthodox - I really need to make that a priority! - but I used to reread it every couple of years. I'm not aware of anything in it that contradicts Orthodoxy though, and have heard other Orthodox recommend it. It is written by a Catholic monk, I believe, who goes only by the name Brother Lawrence. The title is "The Practice of the Presence of God". Again, it's a good idea to talk to a priest, but this is a simple yet powerful exercise that as far as I know should pose no intrinsic risk.

But please understand, I'm hesitant to say I "recommend" anything. I'm in no position to do that. The best I can do is offer what I did wrong and say "don't do that".

~Anastasia~ · Feb 23, 2018

Here's the site I was talking about. Every time I visit it, it seems they have greatly updated it.

What Is Spiritual Delusion (Prelest) - О духовной прелести

It is very informative now, which I can appreciate. I think I'm going to make it my aim to reread it now. I think most of what I read before has been removed (probably to the other pages linked near the top) ... I saw only one story I remembered from there before.

What I read was all the stories of delusion that had happened to many people, without so much teaching and commentary. Still, seeing what kind of delusions and effects others suffered made me realize how much of what happened to me was actually delusion.

In fact, I know I said in the beginning it was all of God, and I do believe that to be true still. There is a very early stage of grace that St. Silouan describes as common to all new believers (Lord have mercy, I think God actually granted it to me more than once, at three points of "conversion" in my life in this journey). Obviously I am a foolish child who needed reinforcement and care.

He even let me learn, in a specific lesson, that the enemy is incredibly subtle and oftentimes mimics what is holy. But foolishly I took that lesson as something I had learned, not as the warning it most probably was meant to be. And thus ... one brick in the wall of prideful delusion on my part that at some point around that time I started to allow to be built.

I just THANK GOD that He led me eventually to a place where I realized it to my shame and have been corrected. But it took a great deal of humbling and suffering on my part to prepare me to be able to recognize that I had been in great error. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

But - Glory to God!!!

Senkaku · Feb 23, 2018

@~Anastasia~ thanks for the link, definitely going to read it. I think you brought up some interesting points here. I was just watching a video about how orthodox view spirituality vs intellectualism and it made me think about what I have learned over the years wondering if in some ways I have overwritten the truth by what I was taught. this is all new to me so I'm not sure how to take it. I did manage to visit an orthodox church finally and thought it was awesome. The visit made me think about God in a different way.

~Anastasia~ · Feb 23, 2018

Well we certainly have both spirituality and intellectual aspects. I think you can focus on spirituality without having to get deep into anything intellectual, but if intellectualism was the total of anyone's involvement with the faith - it wouldn't be true faith.

Spirituality (by my meaning here) wouldn't be limited to hesychasm though - not by a long shot. That's just a slice of it.

Do you mind if I ask how you saw God differently?

I did too. In my case I was never so impressed with the absolute awesomeness of God and the sense of sacredness, but have also come to know Him as loving in ways I never did before.

Senkaku · Feb 23, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
Do you mind if I ask how you saw God differently?

No problem, I like talking about it.

so basically, I have been on a spiritual journey for truth since the beginning of this year. I got into a debate on here about which denomination was the "true" one. It made me wonder that myself, even though my answer to that is that denominations are not biblical. So, I decided to visit different denominations and see if I could find what that truth was. We can't all claim absolute truth and all be right at the same time. In my journey, I decided to go to an orthodox church. I was born and raised catholic and then got saved in a Pentecostal church, so i have had two extreme's in Christianity. I have also visited a Lutheran, Apostolic, baptist, Messianic and Pentecostal church in that time. I learned a lot through that journey and even worked through a lot of garbage beliefs I held. All of those churches were great, but they had one thing in common, they all claimed to be more right that other denominations. I kept hoping for it to end, but it continued with each church I went to, needless to say, that was annoying. Anyhow, out of all the churches I went to, the orthodox church stood out the most to me. I went there and was kinda confused by everything as it was all new to me, but I followed along as my goal was to be objective at every church. The reverence for God was really cool there, I learned very quickly that I don't have enough reverence in my life. That wasn't all of it though, something was...different after I left. I felt changed on the inside and whatever it was, it lasted for 3 days afterward, I just woke up and felt different, like something had shifted inside of me. Being charismatic, I have had all kinds of weird encounters with God, but this was different. It was a type of peace, a feeling like everything is ok, like I didn't have to fight anymore or something like that. I couldn't shake it because no one prayed over me, heck, there wasn't even a message because it was a different Sunday. There was something about the atmosphere maybe, or the incense, maybe the chanting...I'm not sure, I kept trying to figure out what was different about it. All i know was that I ended up going back there 2 more times because the other churches paled in comparison to whatever it was that God did to me there.

icxn · Feb 23, 2018

You are not the first to admit that. In 987, when Prince Vladimir begun to recognize that pagan gods were unable to unify the Russian people he sent embassies to the neighboring states of Bulgaria, Khazar, and Byzantium to examine their beliefs. When the ambassadors returned, they declared that the Islam of Bulgaria was too unhappy a religion to adopt. The fact that Islam bans fermented drink and pork did not set well with the Russians, who cannot imagine life without either—especially the drink. Vladimir himself rejected the Judaism of his Khazar neighbors, for he believed the Jewish loss of Jerusalem and its temple proves that God has forsaken them. As for German Catholicism, the ambassadors described it as plain and dour. Their impression of the faith of their Orthodox neighbors to the south is altogether different, however. Upon attending a service at the glorious Hagia Sophia cathedral in Constantinople, they reported:

“And we went into the Greek lands, and we were led into a place where they serve their God, and we did not know where we were, on heaven or on earth; and do not know how to tell about this. All we know is that God lives there with people and their service is better than in any other country. We cannot forget that beauty since each person, if he eats something sweet, will not take something bitter afterwards; so we cannot remain any more in paganism.”

Andrei D · Feb 23, 2018

Senkaku said:
There was something about the atmosphere maybe, or the incense, maybe the chanting...I'm not sure, I kept trying to figure out what was different about it.

This is neither here nor there, but you speak exactly like my wife after we visited a few churches and a monastery a couple of years ago. She used to say Orthodoxy answered the question she was asking since childhood.

Which is eerily similar to this: http://pemptousia.com/2014/11/archimandrite-raphael-noica-of-essex/

Off topic - I used to buy incense from random Amazon sellers, then I found the thread here and tried some of the monastery sources posted - what a difference!!!

~Anastasia~ · Feb 24, 2018

Senkaku said:
No problem, I like talking about it.

so basically, I have been on a spiritual journey for truth since the beginning of this year. I got into a debate on here about which denomination was the "true" one. It made me wonder that myself, even though my answer to that is that denominations are not biblical. So, I decided to visit different denominations and see if I could find what that truth was. We can't all claim absolute truth and all be right at the same time. In my journey, I decided to go to an orthodox church. I was born and raised catholic and then got saved in a Pentecostal church, so i have had two extreme's in Christianity. I have also visited a Lutheran, Apostolic, baptist, Messianic and Pentecostal church in that time. I learned a lot through that journey and even worked through a lot of garbage beliefs I held. All of those churches were great, but they had one thing in common, they all claimed to be more right that other denominations. I kept hoping for it to end, but it continued with each church I went to, needless to say, that was annoying. Anyhow, out of all the churches I went to, the orthodox church stood out the most to me. I went there and was kinda confused by everything as it was all new to me, but I followed along as my goal was to be objective at every church. The reverence for God was really cool there, I learned very quickly that I don't have enough reverence in my life. That wasn't all of it though, something was...different after I left. I felt changed on the inside and whatever it was, it lasted for 3 days afterward, I just woke up and felt different, like something had shifted inside of me. Being charismatic, I have had all kinds of weird encounters with God, but this was different. It was a type of peace, a feeling like everything is ok, like I didn't have to fight anymore or something like that. I couldn't shake it because no one prayed over me, heck, there wasn't even a message because it was a different Sunday. There was something about the atmosphere maybe, or the incense, maybe the chanting...I'm not sure, I kept trying to figure out what was different about it. All i know was that I ended up going back there 2 more times because the other churches paled in comparison to whatever it was that God did to me there.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

You've got quite a varied background. I checked out many different denominations too, though most of my life was spent mostly within just a few.

I won't try to analyze what you experienced, but you certainly are not alone.

The first time I was in a Divine Liturgy and heard the choir and was surrounded by the icons, and all the rest, it was the same as icxn described above - it was like being present in heaven, or heaven and God's throne and angels and Saints present to us - hard to tell which.

But from that moment, I never wanted to be anywhere other than in the Orthodox Church. Other services have sometimes been difficult to bear after that.

prodromos · Feb 24, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
But from that moment, I never wanted to be anywhere other than in the Orthodox Church. Other services have sometimes been difficult to bear after that.

That has been my experience also, although my acceptance of Orthodox worship grew over a longer period. When I visit the Church of my upbringing when staying at my parents, it always leaves me saddened.

~Anastasia~ · Feb 24, 2018

prodromos said:
That has been my experience also, although my acceptance of Orthodox worship grew over a longer period. When I visit the Church of my upbringing when staying at my parents, it always leaves me saddened.

I've always felt the same way to varying degrees when I've visited with family.

graphite412 · Feb 24, 2018

Senkaku said:
Being charismatic, I have had all kinds of weird encounters with God, but this was different. It was a type of peace, a feeling like everything is ok, like I didn't have to fight anymore or something like that. I couldn't shake it because no one prayed over me, heck, there wasn't even a message because it was a different Sunday.

As a former charismatic myself, I can tell you that the discernment of our saints in Orthodoxy is incredible, and the sobriety in the spiritual life brings balance that is non existent in other religious groups. I had a lot of questions about spiritual manifestations that happened in the protestant groups and much of it was almost identical to new age type spirituality. Orthodoxy is totally different. I actually had an edifying conversation with some fellow parishioners at a church breakfast who came out of a similar environment, and they are going to loan me a book about the gifts of the spirit from an Orthodox perspective, which I soon hope to read. There is a lot I could mention that already has be posted about so feel free to shoot me some questions if you would like.

~Anastasia~ · Feb 24, 2018

graphite412 said:
As a former charismatic myself, I can tell you that the discernment of our saints in Orthodoxy is incredible, and the sobriety in the spiritual life brings balance that is non existent in other religious groups. I had a lot of questions about spiritual manifestations that happened in the protestant groups and much of it was almost identical to new age type spirituality. Orthodoxy is totally different. I actually had an edifying conversation with some fellow parishioners at a church breakfast who came out of a similar environment, and they are going to loan me a book about the gifts of the spirit from an Orthodox perspective, which I soon hope to read. There is a lot I could mention that already has be posted about so feel free to shoot me some questions if you would like.

Would you mind sharing the title and author when they share it with you?

I'm quite intrigued by St. Silhouan on glossalalia. And I know often of clear sight, discernment, etc. and the miracles God does through prayers. Thinking on it, I guess just not a big deal is made of it.

I'd still be interested though.

graphite412 · Mar 13, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
Would you mind sharing the title and author when they share it with you?

In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord: An Orthodox Interpretation of the Gifts of the Spirit
by Fr. Alexis Trader

https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Let-Pr...n+peace+let+us+pray+to+the+lord+alexis+trader

Here is a review:

Overall this book is a good read, but I disagree with Fr Alexis's take on the gift of tongues. He seems to follow Fr. John Romanides in this interpretation where the gift of tongues is the ceaseless interior prayer of the heart. He also quotes St. Gregory Nyssa as holding this view, but unfortunately I do not own the books that he quotes to support this interpretation, which might not even be translated into English. He really downplays St. John Chrysostom's interpretation and those of other canonized saints, which basically states that the gift of tongues is the gift to speak in another language. I know other recent elders held this view as well, Elder Cleopa in Romania is once such example. Much of his footnotes are for books in Greek so it is hard to find much of the books he references. In the appendix there are a number of examples from hagiography of the gift of tongues to support St. John's views. I think the one from St. Porphyrios (Bairaktaris) the Kapsokalyvite is informative since it has happened recently in contemporary times. The others include: the Greatmartyr Christopher (249-251), Paisius the Great (b. 300), Basil the Great (329-364), and Monk Martyr James the New (1520).

Besides the issue with the gift in tongues, I really enjoyed the book. I myself have come out of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements and have had first hand experience of the things that are mentioned in this book. Some of his commentary on the movement could be a lot more nuanced since the beliefs in this movement vary differently. Some Pentecostals are Modalist while other are Trinitarian, so the dogmatics can vary greatly, and some from both of these groups might sill consider the others "saved." A lot of his views about the moment are spot on and are great insights, but it would be better if he had had firsthand experience in these movements. Fr. Seraphim Rose's book "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future also has much insight as well. Much of what Fr. Seraphim Rose has written has already come to pass in that by the time I became Orthodox there were large amounts of Charismatic groups that were basically New Age in theology and practice, overflowing with self appointed apostles and "prophets."

The book covers a brief history of these movements but could really go into more detail and also show more about the moral shortcoming of the leaders in these movements vs their contemporary Orthodox counterparts. Noticing the differences in humility and discernment were a huge influence for my beginning involvement into studying Orthodoxy. The book really seems to target Orthodox readers, but could be interesting for those in the Charismatic and Pentecostal circles who question the spirituality and foundations of their movement. I would not recommend it for those who are convinced that the modern Charismatic/Pentecostal Protestantism is the truth. The book is of moderate size, but a book on this topic could easily be 600 pages.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 14, 2018

graphite412 said:
In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord: An Orthodox Interpretation of the Gifts of the Spirit
by Fr. Alexis Trader

https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Let-Pr...n+peace+let+us+pray+to+the+lord+alexis+trader

Here is a review:

Overall this book is a good read, but I disagree with Fr Alexis's take on the gift of tongues. He seems to follow Fr. John Romanides in this interpretation where the gift of tongues is the ceaseless interior prayer of the heart. He also quotes St. Gregory Nyssa as holding this view, but unfortunately I do not own the books that he quotes to support this interpretation, which might not even be translated into English. He really downplays St. John Chrysostom's interpretation and those of other canonized saints, which basically states that the gift of tongues is the gift to speak in another language. I know other recent elders held this view as well, Elder Cleopa in Romania is once such example. Much of his footnotes are for books in Greek so it is hard to find much of the books he references. In the appendix there are a number of examples from hagiography of the gift of tongues to support St. John's views. I think the one from St. Porphyrios (Bairaktaris) the Kapsokalyvite is informative since it has happened recently in contemporary times. The others include: the Greatmartyr Christopher (249-251), Paisius the Great (b. 300), Basil the Great (329-364), and Monk Martyr James the New (1520).

Besides the issue with the gift in tongues, I really enjoyed the book. I myself have come out of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements and have had first hand experience of the things that are mentioned in this book. Some of his commentary on the movement could be a lot more nuanced since the beliefs in this movement vary differently. Some Pentecostals are Modalist while other are Trinitarian, so the dogmatics can vary greatly, and some from both of these groups might sill consider the others "saved." A lot of his views about the moment are spot on and are great insights, but it would be better if he had had firsthand experience in these movements. Fr. Seraphim Rose's book "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future also has much insight as well. Much of what Fr. Seraphim Rose has written has already come to pass in that by the time I became Orthodox there were large amounts of Charismatic groups that were basically New Age in theology and practice, overflowing with self appointed apostles and "prophets."

The book covers a brief history of these movements but could really go into more detail and also show more about the moral shortcoming of the leaders in these movements vs their contemporary Orthodox counterparts. Noticing the differences in humility and discernment were a huge influence for my beginning involvement into studying Orthodoxy. The book really seems to target Orthodox readers, but could be interesting for those in the Charismatic and Pentecostal circles who question the spirituality and foundations of their movement. I would not recommend it for those who are convinced that the modern Charismatic/Pentecostal Protestantism is the truth. The book is of moderate size, but a book on this topic could easily be 600 pages.

Thank you. That book was on my list but I never got to it and had forgotten why.

I think I've gotten a more balanced view from reading different Saints and putting together with my own experiences of the past compared to my experiences under the guidance of the Church as well.

I'm not surprised that there is confusion on this topic. I certainly couldn't have sorted it out myself and I have a good bit teaching and experience from various points of view. The Saints are the best guide I've found.

It's true that there is a lot of variation both within Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations, and so the Church's take on it.

FWIW, I would agree that "the gift of tongues" as practiced today (when it is genuine) is not the Prayer of the heart - but it can be related.

Thank you for the info.

I'm not sure whether or not I'll get around to reading it. It still interests me, though not so much for my own sake anymore. But there is a list that interests me that I'll probably never get through.

Thank you again!

(Sorry for the delay in replying - way behind on everything here!)

Senkaku · Apr 27, 2018

I wanted to ask another question. What is the position of the Orthodox church on exorcism/healing? just to be clear, by exorcism i mean the act of removing demons from individuals and how demons effect people either by oppression or possession of the body, mind, heart or spirit. By healing i mean emotional, physical, divine, spiritual, psychological.

Andrei D · Apr 27, 2018

Christ sent out his Apostles to heal and cast out demons. That's unquestionable, both in Scripture and Tradition.

There are specific services / hierurgies for both.

Baptism is always preceded by Exorcism.

Several powerful prayers by St. Basil the Great are specifically used for exorcism.

Although the entire Orthodox practice is aimed at healing to begin with, the Mystery of the Holy Oil is the specific service for those who need physical or spiritual healing.

ArmyMatt · Apr 27, 2018

Senkaku said:
I wanted to ask another question. What is the position of the Orthodox church on exorcism/healing? just to be clear, by exorcism i mean the act of removing demons from individuals and how demons effect people either by oppression or possession of the body, mind, heart or spirit. By healing i mean emotional, physical, divine, spiritual, psychological.

we absolutely affirm them.

Abel Gkiouzelis · May 1, 2018

Yes it's active in many Saints and blessed Elders of our days like Saint Paisios of Mount Athos, Greece (+1994), etc.

Saint Paisios of Mount Athos, Greece (+1994)

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