Questions about Orthodoxy

[Iacobus]

Ok, I've been thinking all night at work and I have some specific questions now. I'm not trying to start any debates or bait anyone; if any of these are likely to be controversial, just PM me with answers.


Does the Church have "official positions" on worldly matters such as politics, jobs, etc? If so, what are those positions regarding:
1) Marriage/Divorce/Remarriage

2) Evolution/Creation debate

3) Recognition of Catholic Saints (Does the Orthodox Church recognize any/all/some Catholic Saints?)

4) Titles/Roles/Responsibilities (not exhaustive, just general responsibilities) of "ministers" in the Church. Restrictions also such as marriage history, etc. I mean like could a widower become a priest or a divorced man, etc.

That's all I can think of right now but I'll keep reading the sites linked and if I haven't found an answer to a question when it occurs to me, I'll post further questions. Thanks again.

I'll take a whack at a few of those:

Marriage -- We're for it! But we do allow divorce, as a concession to human weakness. We certainly don't encourage it, but we recognize it as a fact of life. Interestingly, the Orthodox ceremony for remarriage is not the same as for a first marriage -- there are certain penitential aspects to it. But there is a limit to marriages. Someone - I want to say St. John Chrysostom, but don't take that as the gospel -- said "anyone who marries more than three times is a pig." So we have that limit.

Evolution -- My impression is that few people are worked up about it. I have read Orthodox material taking a variety of positions on it. Most Orthodox I know are creationists of one variety or another, but I don't think most of us see it as something that our faith lives or dies on.

Roman Catholic saints -- we don't recognize any RC saints after the schism, at least to my knowledge.

James

 

[Oblio]

Evolution/Creation debate

We place the same emphasis on this as we do on the rapture

 

[Matrona]

As far as I know, priests are allowed to divorce. However, they never remarry. A widowed priest can become a bishop, but a regular married priest cannot. I do not know if divorced priests can ever become a bishop.

 

[Nickolai]

Most of the time if not all of the time. Bishops are former Iguman or Archimandrite. Sometimes they are former Heiromonks but usually never just Priests.

And about the divorced becoming priests. This is allowed in some cases. For example I know a Sub-Deacon that was a former Muslim. He had a muslim wife and She and him got divorced. They had two CHildren and they are still young. He expressed his desire to enter the priesthood and my Bishop said that he NEEDS to be married again before he can be a priest. Because him young CHildren have to have a Mother.

 

[Oblio]

I know that if you are divorced after being married in the Church, you can become a Hieromonk (monk/priest).

 

[Dust and Ashes]

It kind of blows my mind that a married man can be a priest but then I suppose it shouldn't since OT priests were often married. Also, what if a married priest's wife dies and several years later he meets a woman and they fall in love and he decides that he can't live without her? If he determines to marry her and goes to his Bishop with it, will he be thrown out of the church or just removed from the priesthood and allowed to marry or what?

Oh, yeah, another question. As you probably noticed from my icon, I'm Pentecostal...where does the Church stand on miracles, tongues, etc. I've seen too many miracles to be convinced they don't happen anymore and though I disagree with how far out of scripture some churches have gone with tongues, I know they were a part of the early Church. Not to mention my own personal experiences with them.

There are numerous instances of someone speaking languages they have never spoken before. Our pastor told of one instance in a Baptist church where a man spoke in tongues but no one interpreted. Then after the service, a visiting missionary approached the pastor and told him that the guy had been speaking in the language of an obscure tribe of South American indians that the missionary had worked with. He was afraid to give the interpretation during the service as he knew they believed tongues no longer had any use "passed away."

And thanks for all the great, helpful answers you have given me so far. I really appreciate your help and patience. A big ole for all of you.

 

[Nickolai]

Miracles are kind of a common thing in Orthodoxy. The Miraculous Holy Fire comes to mind. Toungues doesn't happen to often. I'd imagine that it does though. But not to the level of pentacostals.

 

[Iacobus]

It kind of blows my mind that a married man can be a priest but then I suppose it shouldn't since OT priests were often married. Also, what if a married priest's wife dies and several years later he meets a woman and they fall in love and he decides that he can't live without her? If he determines to marry her and goes to his Bishop with it, will he be thrown out of the church or just removed from the priesthood and allowed to marry or what?

Oh, yeah, another question. As you probably noticed from my icon, I'm Pentecostal...where does the Church stand on miracles, tongues, etc. I've seen too many miracles to be convinced they don't happen anymore and though I disagree with how far out of scripture some churches have gone with tongues, I know they were a part of the early Church. Not to mention my own personal experiences with them.

There are numerous instances of someone speaking languages they have never spoken before. Our pastor told of one instance in a Baptist church where a man spoke in tongues but no one interpreted. Then after the service, a visiting missionary approached the pastor and told him that the guy had been speaking in the language of an obscure tribe of South American indians that the missionary had worked with. He was afraid to give the interpretation during the service as he knew they believed tongues no longer had any use "passed away."

And thanks for all the great, helpful answers you have given me so far. I really appreciate your help and patience. A big ole for all of you.

It seems to me that the Orthodox live and breathe miracles. Honestly, you can't turn anywhere without running into another one.

As far as tongues go, I see very little of what I used to see, where people speak in tongues in the charismatic sense. I have run across numerous instances, including many modern ones, where an elder would speak to a pilgrim in their native tongue, where the elder in fact does not know how to speak that language. One example is found in Elder Porphyrious (sp?) in Greece, who counseled a woman in her language, which was French. From his perspective, he was speaking in Greek, but she heard him in French. That kind of thing is not particularly uncommon.

James

 

[Rilian]

forgivensinner, I think one thing you'll find is that one thing the Orthodox Church never lost sight of is the Holy Spirit. He plays an incredibly important and active part in the life of the church, especially the sacraments. I think this page outlines some of the differences between how the spirit is viewed in Orthodoxy and some of the modern interpretations of the spirit in the west.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

...where does the Church stand on miracles, tongues, etc. I've seen too many miracles to be convinced they don't happen anymore

hehehe... We DEFINITELY don't believe that miracles "don't happen anymore" - keep digging into Orthodoxy and you'll find some mind-blowing things!

As far as tongues, I read a book called "The Mountain of Silence" a couple of years ago, that entailed the story of a monk on Mt. Athos speaking French to a group of tourists, to share the love of Christ with them. And he'd never studied French in his life.

Katherine

 

[ufonium2]

First, we should look at the Apostles. These were very holy men from a limited geographical area who were called by God to spread Christ's message to the world. There was a much greater variety of languages then (think tribal languages in modern Africa) and the Apostles didn't have time to learn all these new languages. So, God gave them the ability to speak languages they had never studied in order to spread Christianity. This is what happened in Iocabus and Moses's example above, and every instance I can recall of an Orthodox Christian speaking in tongues follows this same scenario. A Greek monk on Mt. Athos doesn't randomly start speaking Swahili in the middle of Vespers while surrounded by other Greek-speakers, but if a pilgrim came from Africa to see him he might find that he could speak Swahili in order to converse with the pilgrim. A nun also told me about a monk she visited who had an amazing facility for languages; he spoke English to her, Greek to the other monks,and Italian, Spanish, and Japanese to other visitors. With him it wasn't some lightning-bolt spontaneous gift, but an incredible knack for picking up other languages very quickly. I believe this is more in line with the original intent of the gift of tongues, as opposed to you or me suddenly speaking Arabic in a room full of folks who understand English perfectly well.


That said, I've given a lot of thought to the "supernatural" lately, and I'd like to share my thoughts in hopes that they might shed light on spiritual gifts and miracles:

One thing you'll find about the Orthodox Church is that it retains the mystical side of Christianity that has been lost in much of Christianity over the past 500 years or so. Many other churches have focused on combatting societal evils ("litte e" evils) such as poverty, hunger and vice and have essentially forgotten the source of these evils, "big E" Evil. Satan is very real and Evil is everywhere, and it is up to us as Christians to recognize and combat it. Since Orthodoxy is more mystically and spiritually oriented, Orthodox Christians are often more aware of this, and tend to take the "supernatural" side of Christianity very seriously.

I'm telling you this to tell you that Orthodoxy realizes that Evil doesn't always have horns and a tail. If it did, nobody would ever follow it. Evil can come under the guise of an angel, a friend, or even the Holy Spirit. I firmly believe a good chunk of the "spiritual gifts" experienced today (those that actually happen, which in my opinion make up a very small portion of the modern tongues phenomenon) are not from the Holy Spirit at all. I could share the story the convinced me of this, but I would probably get banned for flaming another belief.

So, Orthodoxy definitely believes in the miraculous and the supernatural, but it also recognizes that not every supernatural event is the work of the Holy Spirit. There are two sides to the coin, and ignoring the other one won't make it go away.

 

[MariaRegina]

I'll take a whack at a few of those:

Marriage -- We're for it! But we do allow divorce, as a concession to human weakness. We certainly don't encourage it, but we recognize it as a fact of life. Interestingly, the Orthodox ceremony for remarriage is not the same as for a first marriage -- there are certain penitential aspects to it. But there is a limit to marriages. Someone - I want to say St. John Chrysostom, but don't take that as the gospel -- said "anyone who marries more than three times is a pig." So we have that limit.

Evolution -- My impression is that few people are worked up about it. I have read Orthodox material taking a variety of positions on it. Most Orthodox I know are creationists of one variety or another, but I don't think most of us see it as something that our faith lives or dies on.

Roman Catholic saints -- we don't recognize any RC saints after the schism, at least to my knowledge.

James

Regarding divorce:

My Orthodox Priest just recently mentioned that each marriage is examined on an individual basis. In some cases, the couple involved will be referred to marriage counseling and spiritual counseling by the Priest to help them resolve their marital difficulties. We now have weekends devoted to heal marriages like Marriage Encounter and another one devoted to reconciling marriages (Both retreat movements started within the Latin Catholic church, but have been revised to fit Orthodox needs). The Orthodox Church tries to save marriages if at all possible. Not all people are blessed to have a second marriage - the petition must be addressed by the bishop who may or may not allow a second marriage. It also depends on the state of the parties involved. In a second marriage, the priest and bishop look for repentance. Without repentance, there can be no marriage of penitence.

Divorce is considered a sin. And those involved in separations or divorces are penanced for a period of time, some being denied Holy Communion for up to 3 years.

 

[MariaRegina]

As far as I know, priests are allowed to divorce. However, they never remarry. A widowed priest can become a bishop, but a regular married priest cannot. I do not know if divorced priests can ever become a bishop.

Yes, divorced priests may become bishops after a time of penance. It's on an individual basis. Repentance is the key.

 

[Sergius_Lucius]

Does the Church have "official positions" on worldly matters such as politics, jobs, etc?

You can check Basic Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church. I believe the document mostly represent common Orthodox positions.

 

[katherine2001]

Bishop Nikon of the OCA was a married priest who became a monastic after his wife died in either 2000 or 2001. He wasn't a monastic for very long before he became a bishop.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

What is the Church's stance on Israel's and the Jewish people's "place" in things? Have they been "replaced" by the Church or are they still the Chosen? I personally believe that God's covenant with Abraham in choosing Israel was without condition (though the covenant of prosperity/national security was conditional on obedience) but I'm not swinging to the other extreme like John Hagee and saying that they don't need Jesus.

I am almost certainly going to convert to Orthodoxy as the more I read, the more convinced I become that it is indeed the historical Church and that Holy Tradition was handed down by the Church Fathers to maintain the accuracy and integrity of worship and belief. I also feel the Holy Spirit strongly leading me to this conclusion. My wife is willing to try it but I can tell her feelings are quite reserved (maybe even dubious) as I haven't been able to adequately express to her the deep things I've discovered in my research.

My second question is this...if I can't find a Church or mission closer than Memphis, I will go there but, at least for the time being, it isn't practical or economically plausable for me to go every week. So, until I can maybe find a Church closer or find a better job/home closer to a Church, would it be too terribly frowned upon if I split my time between my current church and an Orthodox one?

My wife also had a question. We attend a charismatic church and she is a member of the "praise and worship team" and sings on the platform during that portion of the service. She often raises her hands when she worships and was wondering if she would be able to do that. She doesn't scream and jump pews, just raises her hands. She was visiting her parent's church once and the singing was really blessing her so she raised her hands in praise and one of the deacons came over and told her, "We don't do that in this church."

She was raised in a very legalistic church tradition and I think she is afraid Orthodoxy is that way. I've been trying to explain to her the best I can it's not but I think she will just have to see for herself. Please keep us in your prayers that God will make a way for us to be closer to Him and His Body. Thank you.

 

[Reader Nilus]

What is the Church's stance on Israel's and the Jewish people's "place" in things? Have they been "replaced" by the Church or are they still the Chosen? I personally believe that God's covenant with Abraham in choosing Israel was without condition (though the covenant of prosperity/national security was conditional on obedience) but I'm not swinging to the other extreme like John Hagee and saying that they don't need Jesus.

I am almost certainly going to convert to Orthodoxy as the more I read, the more convinced I become that it is indeed the historical Church and that Holy Tradition was handed down by the Church Fathers to maintain the accuracy and integrity of worship and belief. I also feel the Holy Spirit strongly leading me to this conclusion. My wife is willing to try it but I can tell her feelings are quite reserved (maybe even dubious) as I haven't been able to adequately express to her the deep things I've discovered in my research.

My second question is this...if I can't find a Church or mission closer than Memphis, I will go there but, at least for the time being, it isn't practical or economically plausable for me to go every week. So, until I can maybe find a Church closer or find a better job/home closer to a Church, would it be too terribly frowned upon if I split my time between my current church and an Orthodox one?

My wife also had a question. We attend a charismatic church and she is a member of the "praise and worship team" and sings on the platform during that portion of the service. She often raises her hands when she worships and was wondering if she would be able to do that. She doesn't scream and jump pews, just raises her hands. She was visiting her parent's church once and the singing was really blessing her so she raised her hands in praise and one of the deacons came over and told her, "We don't do that in this church."

She was raised in a very legalistic church tradition and I think she is afraid Orthodoxy is that way. I've been trying to explain to her the best I can it's not but I think she will just have to see for herself. Please keep us in your prayers that God will make a way for us to be closer to Him and His Body. Thank you.

Orthodox do raise their hands in prayer, in some Antiochian parishes almost all of the people do. I raise my hands during the Lord's Prayer, and at the prayer of institution of the Eucharist.
No it would not be frowned upon, I did so when I was converting, in fact I was on the Vestry of the Episcopal Parish for the first year I was going to the Orthodox parish. After a while the other church loses its attaction after being at the Divine Liturgies, worship is bland in other churches.
The Church is the heir of Abraham's promise, and modern day Jewish folks we hope and pray will be converted, but we do not feel that zionism is a biblical idea at all.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Dust and Ashes]

The Church is the heir of Abraham's promise, and modern day Jewish folks we hope and pray will be converted, but we do not feel that zionism is a biblical idea at all.
Jeff the Finn

What about that the modern nation of Israel is a fulfilment of OT prophecies where God promised to gather them from among the nations and replace them in the land and that they would never be removed? I mean does not believing Zionism Biblical let you still believe those are fulfilments of prophecy or is it just a string of coincidences? I hope that came out right.

 

[Reader Nilus]

What about that the modern nation of Israel is a fulfilment of OT prophecies where God promised to gather them from among the nations and replace them in the land and that they would never be removed? I mean does not believing Zionism Biblical let you still believe those are fulfilments of prophecy or is it just a string of coincidences? I hope that came out right.

For Orthodox the whole of the Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. There was no promise to the Jews that they would regain a nation-state 2000-3000 years later. When Our Lord said His Kingdom is not of this world he meant what He said, just as the zealots of the New Testament times felt that Jesus would bring on the overthrow of the Romans, do modern day Zionists of the Darby/Scofield dispensational school of thought think that the nation of Israel as it is today is Biblical. How many Christians have the Israeli's forced out? Today, after 2000 years and a 1000 or so of them under the Moslems Christians existed in the Holy Land, today they are fast disappearing under Zionism.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Dust and Ashes]

For Orthodox the whole of the Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. There was no promise to the Jews that they would regain a nation-state 2000-3000 years later. When Our Lord said His Kingdom is not of this world he meant what He said, just as the zealots of the New Testament times felt that Jesus would bring on the overthrow of the Romans, do modern day Zionists of the Darby/Scofield dispensational school of thought think that the nation of Israel as it is today is Biblical. How many Christians have the Israeli's forced out? Today, after 2000 years and a 1000 or so of them under the Moslems Christians existed in the Holy Land, today they are fast disappearing under Zionism.
Jeff the Finn

How many Christians are being driven out under Zionism has no bearing on what I'm asking. I'm not trying to endorse or justify Zionism. Just to make sure that I'm clear, the Orthodox church holds a similar view as the Church of Christ denomination that the OT is pretty much passed away then and all the prophecies are now void?

Edited to add: Where can I find some good teaching on this position as all I've ever been taught was "dispensationalism" and don't know anything else. If there is a reason it is erroneous, where can I find some solid teaching on it. Thanks