Questions About Hell

Dorothy Mae · Nov 27, 2019

Light of the East said:
No one is saying that there is not punishment. That is not the issue. The issue is the idea of an unjust punishment which goes far beyond any sin committed in chronological time.

Do you see clearly how far people’s sin goes in its evil
affect? Do you judge the severity by how it took to perpetuate it?

Dorothy Mae · Nov 27, 2019

zoidar said:
Ok, what was the problem of Adam and Eve eating the fruit?

You don’t know the account? She desired to be like God and so did the forbidden. You really don’t know that? Read Genesis the first few chapters.

Eloy Craft · Nov 27, 2019

FineLinen said:
Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?

Existence is a good of God. I think the damned desire it.

Dorothy Mae · Nov 27, 2019

Eloy Craft said:
Existence is a good of God. I think the damned desire it.

I’ve talked to a fair number of atheists and they all assume/hope there is no existence after death. They don’t desire it at all once the body is dead.

AlexDTX · Nov 27, 2019

martymonster said:
Yeah, claiming that Christ will get what he paid for, with his own blood, yeah....how demonic!

OK, Marty. It is clear you embrace US, too. So far, no US adherent has answered my question. What is the point in trying to convince Christians that are already saved, this doctrine?

Josheb · Nov 27, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Josh: You have the questions, you have your answers. And what answers they are.

Question= Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

Your answer=

"Yes. It is good to have an absence of evil."

I have zero problem with evil being ended, and in fact firmly believe when it has accomplished the purpose for which God has designed it shall be no more. "I the Lord create good and create evil, I the Lord do all these things."

The verse is, once again, being taken out of context. I cannot recommend emphatically enough that you pick up a book or two on exegesis. The Isaiah 45:7 verse is a verse that occurs after sin has already entered the world. You're also using the KJV which in many of these cases is not the best translation. The righteous, sinless, law making Law Maker cannot act lawlessly without compromising his own character. I assume it is that principle you seek to leverage (abuse) in this op. The problem is once the world and all humans become corrupt God is free to do with the refuse as He pleases; tossing out the trash isn't evil in any way, shape or form and the fact that He let you draw enough breath to type this op is a gift of grace. He could have ended your life the moment you were born.

You and I are just each just a big black pit of sin and you have nothing God needs or wants.

So when Isaiah writes in a sinful world of a righteous God working in a sinful world with sinful people and describes God creating evil in an already-evil world that is a much, much different condition than God creating evil prior to Genesis 1:31 when He Himself declared everything He made "very good." And it remained that way until Genesis 3:7, at which time sin entered the world through one man's disobedience. From that moment on - again I state - God is free to create evil from the already-existing evil and pour it into and onto the lives of already-sinful humans as He sovereignly chooses.

And no amount of proof-texting will change these facts.

It will, however, demonstrate an appalling lack of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding rightly handling God's word.

FineLinen said:
God our Father does NOT inflict endless punishment. He punishes with one object, and one object only as the Father of all fathers>>>

Change & transformation in Holy perfect rectitude

You got scripture for that?

Because my Bible has Jesus plainly stating,

Matthew 10:24-33
“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household. So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."[/I]

Body and soul are destroyed.
Eternally.
Period.

Paul reiterated this when he wrote,

Galatians 6:6-8
"The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."

The term Paul used in our Greek manuscripts is, "phthoran." It means decay, corruption, rotting, or decomposition. The term Jesus used is much more blunt: "apolesai." It means to kill or destroy to the point of the cessation of existence. The figures of speech employed all throughout the NT communicate this truth: chaff in a fire is literally destroyed, the trash in Gehenna burns and decomposes until it ceases to exist. Anyone living near a landfill simply need watch the methane vents to understand the poignant picture Jesus was referencing.

Ultimately a very important truth is necessary: The traditional Jewish view was Sheol," the realm of the dead where "the dead know nothing" (Ecc. 9:5). This was the view of the Sadducees in the first century when Jesus corrected their legalistic reading of God's law and their hypocritical practice of it. It was the Pharisees, who arose during the inter-testamental period, that believed in a resurrection, or a life after death. We see only Pharisees converting to Christ (Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, Saul of Tarsus), no Sadducees. Jesus spoke of Sheol, the land where the dead know nothing, Gehenna, the trash pit on the backside of Jerusalem where trash smoldered and decayed endlessly until it turned to ash and then nothing, and the Greek and Roman Hades and Hell. For the Greeks and Romans the dead lived in endless and aimless misery unless a person was deified, by which they didn't actually become gods, they were merely permitted to live in the Elysium Fields at the foot of Mount Olympus.

None of the above is what Jesus taught!

Jesus corrected that dross. He told those first century folks the blunt truth: you'd be blessed if you got to suffer. No, your fate is much worse than that if you do not believe. What Jesus taught was a very plain and simply dichotomy: eternal life or eternal destruction. You need to fear Him Who destroys both body and soul to the point they cease to exist. Apolesai. And we know this destruction, whether due to a gradual decay and decomposition of the dead, or an immediate separation from the Creator in Whom life itself is alone found and Who holds all things together, or instant, permanent, eternal annihilation - we know this destruction contains finality because in the end death itself is destroyed. If death doesn't die, then none of scripture is true. Death remains.

Eternally.

So put your thinking cap on and deal with the whole of scripture not selective use of individual verses that lead to bad doctrines.

In the end death gets destroyed, and along with it all those who denied Christ crucified, dead, and resurrected.

Eradicating evil is a good thing.

RaymondG · Nov 27, 2019

AlexDTX said:
OK, Marty. It is clear you embrace US, too. So far, no US adherent has answered my question. What is the point in trying to convince Christians that are already saved, this doctrine?

There are they who believe they are saved, who walk in fear of and in yokes of bondage, instead of walking in liberty wherewith Christ hath made them free.....who could benefit from this message, if it be true.

There are also they who believe themselves righteous and thereby able to sit high, and judgement/condemn them that are low....unless they believe their words and complete the works they have completed. Possibly holding the keys to the kingdom, while not entering in, hindering others that would. Those that are "low" can be turned off by this message, when they could be been drawn by the message that Christ Died for them and loves them, just as they are.....while they are yet sinners.
Maybe this message could help benefit these righteous people by persuading them to not hinder or place yokes of bondage on others.......if it be true.

FineLinen · Nov 27, 2019

Josheb said:
You are just a big black pit of sin and you have nothing God needs or wants.

Dear Father: You see me as I am.

FineLinen · Nov 27, 2019

Would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the INFLICTOR?
Would endless misery benefit the saints, as SPECTATORS?
Would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the SUFFERER?
If endless punishment be the "wages of sin," could the sinner ever receive payment in full? (Rom. 6:23)
As man is a finite being, can he commit an infinite sin?
If man cannot commit an infinite sin, can he deserve endless punishment?
If one sin be infinite, can a million be any more?
If ONE sin be NOT infinite, can a million of sins amount to an infinite sin?
If sin be infinite, can one sin be greater than the other?
If sin be infinite, can it be true that, "where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound?" --(Rom. 5:20)
If sin be infinite, can it ever be finished or brought to an end?
If ONE sin deserves an eternity of punishment, how much punishment will TEN sins deserve?

Josheb · Nov 27, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Father: You see me as I am. [YouTube link]

YouTube theology.

Lame

Scripture states what scripture states and I surveyed it in context from beginning to end, old and new.

solid_core · Nov 27, 2019

zoidar said:
Lucifer was an angel of light. When he rebelled against God his whole being was corrupted. If anyone has a fallen nature it's him. How then could Lucifer fall in sin? The Bible says he started to think highly of himself and thought he could take God's place. That's the only explanation we have.

I believe Adam wouldn't have been able to choose sin without being tricked.

So its very easy to sin without fallen nature, its enough to be emotional, fearful, tricked, weary, unintelligent, think highly about himself etc.

And nobody has a perfect knowledge, so everybody who sins sins with some degree of being tricked.

Vicky gould · Nov 27, 2019

FineLinen said:
Questions Without Answers On Hell

very interesting questions but they really do have answers. There was an umpire behind the plate and this phenom was at bat. The pitcher wound up and threw the ball. The kid at the plate looked at the umpire and said that was a ball. The umpire said "Son, it ain't nothing until I call it." Umpires are men and they can and do make wrong calls. The difference with God all He does is what is right even if we cannot understand it. I believe the vast majority of Christians struggle with that at some point of our walk but we know our God is True, Faithful, Merciful does no wrong. Knowing people are choosing that path and they are relatives, friends and mostly folks I don't know it can be an overwhelming feeling. But there is only One Savior and the rest of us are servants. So we continue to share the Word of the Good News and trust He will have done all, even allowing Himself to be crucified, that none should perish. I pray you might have His peace. God bless

martymonster · Nov 28, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Why did Adam sin?

Because he was made of the dust of the ground.

martymonster · Nov 28, 2019

AlexDTX said:
OK, Marty. It is clear you embrace US, too. So far, no US adherent has answered my question. What is the point in trying to convince Christians that are already saved, this doctrine?

....And which particular question was that?

zoidar · Nov 28, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
You don’t know the account? She desired to be like God and so did the forbidden. You really don’t know that? Read Genesis the first few chapters.

Deleted

zoidar · Nov 28, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Sure. “What causes wars and fightings among you? Isn’t it your passions that are at war in your members? You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtains you fight”

This is why Cain murdered. This is why we sin. It’s not something we cannot help. This is why Eve sinned.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Rom 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Rom 5:18-19
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

zoidar · Nov 28, 2019

solid_core said:
So its very easy to sin without fallen nature, its enough to be emotional, fearful, tricked, weary, unintelligent, think highly about himself etc.

And nobody has a perfect knowledge, so everybody who sins sins with some degree of being tricked.

Easy, I don't think. We don't know exactly the whole story with Lucifer, neither do we know the full story of the first man.

FineLinen · Nov 28, 2019

Vicky gould said:
very interesting questions but they really do have answers. There was an umpire behind the plate and this phenom was at bat. The pitcher wound up and threw the ball. The kid at the plate looked at the umpire and said that was a ball. The umpire said "Son, it ain't nothing until I call it." Umpires are men and they can and do make wrong calls. The difference with God all He does is what is right even if we cannot understand it. I believe the vast majority of Christians struggle with that at some point of our walk but we know our God is True, Faithful, Merciful does no wrong. Knowing people are choosing that path and they are relatives, friends and mostly folks I don't know it can be an overwhelming feeling. But there is only One Savior and the rest of us are servants. So we continue to share the Word of the Good News and trust He will have done all, even allowing Himself to be crucified, that none should perish. I pray you might have His peace. God bless

Dear Vicki: Of course the questions have answers. Our answers will need to be in union with the Umpire who never makes a wrong call. He never ever makes a wrong call.

Jesus said, “I am the Bread of Life. The person who aligns with me hungers no more and thirsts no more, ever. I have told you this explicitly because even though you have seen me in action, you don’t really believe me. Every person the Father gives me eventually comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I hold on and don’t let go. I came down from heaven not to follow my own whim but to accomplish the will of the One who sent me.

“This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed—not a single detail missed—and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time.” -The Message-

FineLinen · Nov 28, 2019

solid_core said:
So its very easy to sin without fallen nature, its enough to be emotional, fearful, tricked, weary, unintelligent, think highly about himself etc.

And nobody has a perfect knowledge, so everybody who sins sins with some degree of being tricked.

Dear Solid: Sin is as easy as breathing. It is part of who we are as a result of really bad genes. The only cure is the Hospital where those genes will be transformed by the Great Physician.

Adam1: many made sinners: Last Adam: many "made righteous".

Adam1: really wrong genes>>>

Last Adam: righteous genes.

FineLinen · Nov 28, 2019

"The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The ‘eternal state’ is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the 'final perfection' yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God." –V. Gelesnoff

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