Questions about Free Will"

[DiscardedTruths]

God chose to create a world that would later be riddled with sin, corruption, and evil because he supposedly valued the moral autonomy of humans more. The concept of Original sin makes True free will nonexistent. If we are born into sin, that means that at one point or another we will commit a sin. So at a various point in our life we would have No choice but to commit that sin. If every human being was born with an equitable and impartial nature, where there wasn’t any tendency towards good or evil. We could assume that since we would agents of True free will there would be people that would not be corrupted by sin.

• Why would it be necessary to allow sin to affect All of mankind based on One man’s choice to disobey god? Especially foreseeing all the suffering and evil that would prevail because of this.
• Rather then Punishing every subsquent generation after Adam and Eve, why not just destory Satan?
• How is our supposed free will genuine if it is tainted by our sinful inclinations (something that wasn't our faults)?

 

[Adstar]

Hello discarded

I hope you find some truths to hold on to here

God chose to create a world that would later be riddled with sin, corruption, and evil because he supposedly valued the moral autonomy of humans more. The concept of Original sin makes True free will nonexistent. If we are born into sin, that means that at one point or another we will commit a sin. So at a various point in our life we would have No choice but to commit that sin. If every human being was born with an equitable and impartial nature, where there wasn’t any tendency towards good or evil. We could assume that since we would agents of True free will there would be people that would not be corrupted by sin.

• Why would it be necessary to allow sin to affect All of mankind based on One man’s choice to disobey god? Especially foreseeing all the suffering and evil that would prevail because of this.
• Rather then Punishing every subsquent generation after Adam and Eve, why not just destory Satan?
• How is our supposed free will genuine if it is tainted by our sinful inclinations (something that wasn't our faults)?

Although we have been flawed with the knowledge of sin we still have the free will to either believe our sin is ok or our sin is wrong. We have the free will to accept the Will of God or reject the will of God.

So while we are hopeless sinners we still can have the right spirit towards what is good and what is bad.

Death/punishment is a result of our gaining of the knowledge of Good and evil. It is more like a result that is not good rather than a punishment. Its all about the way you look at things i guess. The real eternal punishment comes not from ones evil deeds but from ones love of their evil deeds.

God has provided a way for those who hate sin to be Redeemed from the eternal consequence of Adam and Eves choice to rebel against the will of God.

So while we are flawed we still have the free will to admit we are flawed or to proudly say our flaws are not flaws.

Why would it be necessary to allow sin to affect All of mankind based on One man’s choice to disobey god? Especially foreseeing all the suffering and evil that would prevail because of this.

God has an eternal perspective. Eternity makes all of the universes history as a blink of an eye in comparison.
Once again it’s about how you look at things. From a life times perspective the history of human existence is very long, but our perspective is not Gods perspective. Clearly God believes it is all worth it from His perspective.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adammi]

In the prayer of the kingdom (The Lord's Prayer, Our Father, our whatever you want to call it), the second line is "Hallowed be your name". In other words, may your very name be regarded as holy. Holy means to be set apart. I've just recently started to understand why we say this. I've always thought that God being holy means that he is pure, super-sanctified, perfect, etc. (which he is), but I'm starting to see something new in saying that God is holy. He is different. God is not like us. We try to understand Him and His ways, but it is impossible for us to understand every part of God because He is holy. He is different than us.

 

[MariaRegina]

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Aria
Team Outreach Moderator

 

[Wigglesworth]

Sin is very serious. It is literally a matter of life and death. I believe this is why God allowed the sin of Adam to result in the physical death of (almost) every person to be born on the earth.

While physical life ends, spiritual life does not end. What happens in the physical realm is temporary. Often, what happens in the physical realm is a lesson to be learned rather than an end in itself.

Every person has the choice of sin or obedience. Even after choosing sin, every person has the choice of remaining in sin or coming to repentence.

Why didn't God just destroy Satan? Because, that would have eliminated one of our choices - the choice to submit to temptation.

 

[Shubunkin]

We are imperfect. Sometimes we make mistakes (sin) because we lack the knowledge to deal with situations that can be difficult and trying. Even without Satan around, we would make mistakes because we are not all-knowing like God is.

 

[cm24]

God chose to create a world that would later be riddled with sin, corruption, and evil because he supposedly valued the moral autonomy of humans more. The concept of Original sin makes True free will nonexistent. If we are born into sin, that means that at one point or another we will commit a sin. So at a various point in our life we would have No choice but to commit that sin. If every human being was born with an equitable and impartial nature, where there wasn’t any tendency towards good or evil. We could assume that since we would agents of True free will there would be people that would not be corrupted by sin.

• Why would it be necessary to allow sin to affect All of mankind based on One man’s choice to disobey god? Especially foreseeing all the suffering and evil that would prevail because of this.
• Rather then Punishing every subsquent generation after Adam and Eve, why not just destory Satan?
• How is our supposed free will genuine if it is tainted by our sinful inclinations (something that wasn't our faults)?

Original Sin does not make free will none existent. We still have the choice to accept the saving grace of Christ and allow him to transform us so that we might sin no more.

-First it depends if you take the literal or Literalist veiw of Genesis. But either way, God must follow his own rules, and as Adam stood for all mankind, so his sin is our sin. You cannot stab yourself in the heart and expect to live.

- Because to destroy Satan- and Thus evil would mean two things. 1- their would be no consequences for Satan's actions, which would be contrary to God's Nature. 2-Destroying Satan would eliminate the possibility of a choice for human beings. If there is no choice, there can be no true Love.

- Again we still have the will to Choose to turn from Sin and follow God, even if some don't.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Original Sin does not make free will none existent. We still have the choice to accept the saving grace of Christ and allow him to transform us so that we might sin no more.

-First it depends if you take the literal or Literalist veiw of Genesis. But either way, God must follow his own rules, and as Adam stood for all mankind, so his sin is our sin. You cannot stab yourself in the heart and expect to live.

- Because to destroy Satan- and Thus evil would mean two things. 1- their would be no consequences for Satan's actions, which would be contrary to God's Nature. 2-Destroying Satan would eliminate the possibility of a choice for human beings. If there is no choice, there can be no true Love.

- Again we still have the will to Choose to turn from Sin and follow God, even if some don't.

It does make TRUE free will nonexistance-(free will with out any initial influence by sin)
Wouldn't satan's consquence be the destruction of him? I would assume ceasing to exist is consquence enough.
Why is our Choice strictly limited to Good vs. Evil?
Why would God choose Adam to stand for All of mankind, when He had the foreknowledge that Adam would fail? Seems like an unneccessary setup.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

We are imperfect. Sometimes we make mistakes (sin) because we lack the knowledge to deal with situations that can be difficult and trying. Even without Satan around, we would make mistakes because we are not all-knowing like God is.

Without the interference of Satan, and the ability to make choices without sinful inclinations.......
Every Choice we make would be genuinely our own. No outside influences(Satan) and No inherent influences (orginial sin). If God truely wants everyone in Heaven, it would make a little more sense to eliminate these problems

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Sin is very serious. It is literally a matter of life and death. I believe this is why God allowed the sin of Adam to result in the physical death of (almost) every person to be born on the earth.

While physical life ends, spiritual life does not end. What happens in the physical realm is temporary. Often, what happens in the physical realm is a lesson to be learned rather than an end in itself.

Every person has the choice of sin or obedience. Even after choosing sin, every person has the choice of remaining in sin or coming to repentence.

Why didn't God just destroy Satan? Because, that would have eliminated one of our choices - the choice to submit to temptation.

Why does God want to tempt us? Knowing full well that Most will fail this test for salvation.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Hello discarded

I hope you find some truths to hold on to here



Although we have been flawed with the knowledge of sin we still have the free will to either believe our sin is ok or our sin is wrong. We have the free will to accept the Will of God or reject the will of God.

Not only the knowledge, but the TENDENCY to do so. That affects our decision making process immensely

So while we are hopeless sinners we still can have the right spirit towards what is good and what is bad.

Death/punishment is a result of our gaining of the knowledge of Good and evil. It is more like a result that is not good rather than a punishment. Its all about the way you look at things i guess. The real eternal punishment comes not from ones evil deeds but from ones love of their evil deeds.

God has provided a way for those who hate sin to be Redeemed from the eternal consequence of Adam and Eves choice to rebel against the will of God.

Ok, God gave us the power to reason, and to question things that seem illogical, and we are born with sin, so at some point we WILL commit sins because that’s our nature, also God allows the devil and his “demons” to roam the earth trying to deceive and dissuade people from making the right choices, personal experiences that causes disbelief in a deity, and that we are faulty, extremely flawed, for the most part ignorant human beings, so with that weighting on us, What kind of God would think that we would be equipped to make such an heavy choice about where we would spend the rest of eternity at? We can’t even fathom what eternity is, so wouldn’t you say it is rather cruel to give us this option to choose, then creating the world in such a way where mankind will essentially fail and be corrupted by sin, knowing full well that most people are going to mess up and make the wrong choice?

So while we are flawed we still have the free will to admit we are flawed or to proudly say our flaws are not flaws.



God has an eternal perspective. Eternity makes all of the universes history as a blink of an eye in comparison.
Once again it’s about how you look at things. From a life times perspective the history of human existence is very long, but our perspective is not Gods perspective. Clearly God believes it is all worth it from His perspective.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

But God also has our perspective on time and eternity...He supposedly became human and walked on earth, so For a period of time he had our mindset. God knows that we can't even concieve what enternity is...and he knows the vast difference between our view of time, and His. While He May possibly see it as being worth it, he knows that we don't see that way at all.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Hello discarded

I hope you find some truths to hold on to here



Although we have been flawed with the knowledge of sin we still have the free will to either believe our sin is ok or our sin is wrong. We have the free will to accept the Will of God or reject the will of God.

Not only the knowledge, but the TENDENCY to do so. That affects our decision making process immensely

So while we are hopeless sinners we still can have the right spirit towards what is good and what is bad.

Death/punishment is a result of our gaining of the knowledge of Good and evil. It is more like a result that is not good rather than a punishment. Its all about the way you look at things i guess. The real eternal punishment comes not from ones evil deeds but from ones love of their evil deeds.

God has provided a way for those who hate sin to be Redeemed from the eternal consequence of Adam and Eves choice to rebel against the will of God.

Ok, God gave us the power to reason, and to question things that seem illogical, and we are born with sin, so at some point we WILL commit sins because that’s our nature, also God allows the devil and his “demons” to roam the earth trying to deceive and dissuade people from making the right choices, personal experiences that causes disbelief in a deity, and that we are faulty, extremely flawed, for the most part ignorant human beings, so with that weighting on us, What kind of God would think that we would be equipped to make such an heavy choice about where we would spend the rest of eternity at? We can’t even fathom what eternity is, so wouldn’t you say it is rather cruel to give us this option to choose, then creating the world in such a way where mankind will essentially fail and be corrupted by sin, knowing full well that most people are going to mess up and make the wrong choice?

So while we are flawed we still have the free will to admit we are flawed or to proudly say our flaws are not flaws.



God has an eternal perspective. Eternity makes all of the universes history as a blink of an eye in comparison.
Once again it’s about how you look at things. From a life times perspective the history of human existence is very long, but our perspective is not Gods perspective. Clearly God believes it is all worth it from His perspective.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

But God also has our perspective on time and eternity...He supposedly became human and walked on earth, so For a period of time he had our mindset. God knows that we can't even concieve what enternity is...and he knows the vast difference between our view of time, and His. While He May possibly see it as being worth it, he knows that we don't see that way at all.

 

[cm24]

It does make TRUE free will nonexistance-(free will with out any initial influence by sin)
Wouldn't satan's consquence be the destruction of him? I would assume ceasing to exist is consquence enough.
Why is our Choice strictly limited to Good vs. Evil?
Why would God choose Adam to stand for All of mankind, when He had the foreknowledge that Adam would fail? Seems like an unneccessary setup.

Is my choice to accept Christ as my saviour not free will? It would seem to me to be more so because I am inclined to sin, and have to make a constent effort not to. If I had no free will, being a fallen person, I would sin constantly.

Ceasing to exist is not punishment, for you wouldn't realize that you do not exist. As soon as you went POOF, it would be over, it would not even be nothing, as nothing is the absence of something. It is hard to comprehend non-existence, simply because God would never allow it

All acts are either Good or Evil, when penetrated to their deepest motivations.

Who can Know the mind of God? I have a duty to train my daughter in the ways of the world, to form her conscience properly, and to teach her all that I know.
Do I think that she will never fail becuase of this? Of course not. Will I constantly watch her every move throughout her entire life, so as to keep her from harm? Of course not. If she decides to become a prostitute, their is only so much I can do to prevent it, and there comes a point were I must let her live her own life, and let her suffer the consequences of her actions

Are you asking these questions as someone seeking the truth, or are you trying to disprove God?

 

[DiscardedTruths]

Is my choice to accept Christ as my saviour not free will? It would seem to me to be more so because I am inclined to sin, and have to make a constent effort not to. If I had no free will, being a fallen person, I would sin constantly.

Ceasing to exist is not punishment, for you wouldn't realize that you do not exist. As soon as you went POOF, it would be over, it would not even be nothing, as nothing is the absence of something. It is hard to comprehend non-existence, simply because God would never allow it

All acts are either Good or Evil, when penetrated to their deepest motivations.

Who can Know the mind of God? I have a duty to train my daughter in the ways of the world, to form her conscience properly, and to teach her all that I know.
Do I think that she will never fail becuase of this? Of course not. Will I constantly watch her every move throughout her entire life, so as to keep her from harm? Of course not. If she decides to become a prostitute, their is only so much I can do to prevent it, and there comes a point were I must let her live her own life, and let her suffer the consequences of her actions

Are you asking these questions as someone seeking the truth, or are you trying to disprove God?

I'm always trying to seek the truth. Personally I don't see any current knowledgable way to disprove God...I just want adequate answers. I just can't seem to wrap my mind around this...I don't see how our free will is genuine when there are all these variables interfering with it. We have Free Will, but it's been tarnished, so it provides us with a extreme disadvantage, that wasn't our fault to begin with.

I guess that's where you and me differ, I find NOT existing to be one the worst punishments...couldn't even imagine....

All acts are good and evil...I find that a little extreme...We can choose between two good or neutral things..or two evil things...Not every decision you make is either strictly Good or Evil.

But you are not omniscient-potent...If you knew your daughter was going to become a prostitue...and you had the power to stop this...I would hope you would.

I guess I just don't see how the prevalence of evil is compatible with a All-loving, omni-benevolent God...

 

[LilLamb219]

I guess I just don't see how the prevalence of evil is compatible with a All-loving, omni-benevolent God

The more you see evil in the world and in our lives the more you should see how wonderful his grace is. He died on the cross for us because we cannot control ourselves and are bound to sin. The will is not free, it is bound to sin, only HE frees that will and conforms it according to His will, but that is for those who are given the gift of faith. Some will reject Him and continue to be bound to sin. Even those who have faith will still sin and see the continued need of His great compassion and mercy upon our souls.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

The more you see evil in the world and in our lives the more you should see how wonderful his grace is. He died on the cross for us because we cannot control ourselves and are bound to sin. The will is not free, it is bound to sin, only HE frees that will and conforms it according to His will, but that is for those who are given the gift of faith. Some will reject Him and continue to be bound to sin. Even those who have faith will still sin and see the continued need of His great compassion and mercy upon our souls.

And God can't let us experience His greatness, without the constant pounding influence of sin? The way the world is right now...it's unbelievably difficult to have faith in with this God. I don't see God's grace, when innocent people are being killed, tortured, raped, brutalized everyday...I Just don't see it..
I don't understand how effective Jesus's death was when millions upon millons of people are going supposedly going to Hell anyways...
I understand it's a choice we have to make....But there are way too many unneccessary things created by God that affect our decision.
And it's mostly about having Faith...But a lot of people don't have faith...and reasonably so...
It seems that God wants some to go to Hell, and I don't understand why...

 

[YourChild]

If we are born into sin, that means that at one point or another we will commit a sin. So at a various point in our life we would have No choice but to commit that sin.

Because we are born into sin, our nature is to sin. But the choice to sin or not is still your's. Your nature draws you to sinning but you can also abstain from sins with the Spirit of God dwelling in you.

• Why would it be necessary to allow sin to affect All of mankind based on One man’s choice to disobey god? Especially foreseeing all the suffering and evil that would prevail because of this.

The Curse was placed on Adam and Eve and that is passed down throughout generations all the way till the end of time. God could chose to pull Adam and Eve to the side and say "hey you did so and so and I will punish just you 2" but I will give succeeding generations a "new" start from scratch in the Garden of Eden. Yes He could have done that too but why didn't He? Maybe its just a personal preference of His whole plan. Maybe He knows that even if every person has a fresh new start at the Garden of Eden, we all would have sold ourselves into sin anyways. Do you think you would've made the same mistake as Adam & Eve or do you think otherwise? Come to think of it, you are still rejecting God. How could you then assume that you would've done any better than Adam & Eve? Those who see and know evil but still reject it and chose to be with God are true Children of God. Those who only see good but never seen or know evil will probably get curious of what evil is and eventually sell themselves into evil, just like what Satan did to himself. Its sort of like a child that has been kept indoor by his parents all his life suddenly becomes a partying drunking wild kid once he moves away to college and live on his own. So maybe we are living in this world as it is because this is the sorting and weeding out process, to see who truly is rejecting evil to be with God.

• Rather then Punishing every subsquent generation after Adam and Eve, why not just destory Satan?

God would have punished every generation after Adam and Eve but out of His grace He decided to spare us and seeks to bring us back to Him. This is accomplished by casting our punishment onto His own Son, Jesus Christ, through His sacrafice. But only those who believe in Christ have the privilegde of being brought back to God (to live in His new Kingdom after this life). Everyone else must be erased from existence to do away with sins for good. God's ways are far beyond our understanding. But I do think that Satan is also a part of His plan. Satan is showing God, who truly are His childrens.

• How is our supposed free will genuine if it is tainted by our sinful inclinations (something that wasn't our faults)?

Your sinful inclination is no longer in tact with yourself once you have recieved the Holy Spirit in you. You might have heard this many times but up to now you still don't really understand what it means to have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you. The Holy Spirit tears down your sinful nature and rebuilds you as a person who is eqiupped to living a life without sin., like literally. I'm not ashame to talk about this, but as an example, I used to touch every single day. Why? because the urges build up inside me. Even if I tried to abstain from it on my own, I couldn't do it. But now with the Holy Spirit in me, my urges are no longer there. I am not sitting here struggling daily to try to not touch but instead, I don't even think about it or feel the need to. The urge is simply not there. Aside from this, the Holy Spirit becomes your daily conselor and personal trainer and you will see for yourself that suddenly you are a newborn person with a fresh mind and soul. All old ways are done away with. So therefore, whether you chose to let go of your old sinful self and let the Holy Spirit live in you is up to you. That is where free will comes in.

 

[LilLamb219]

I don't see God's grace, when innocent people are being killed, tortured, raped, brutalized everyday...I Just don't see it..

You don't see it because you're looking in the wrong places. You can't get past the sinful world to notice what HE has done and is doing for us. You're so worried about people that you believe He is sending to hell, when in fact, they are going to Hell because of their sin, not because of His doing at all. We all deserve hell. He died on the cross so that there can be salvation.

 

[cm24]

[1-]I guess that's where you and me differ, I find NOT existing to be one the worst punishments...couldn't even imagine...

[2-]All acts are good and evil...I find that a little extreme...We can choose between two good or neutral things..or two evil things...Not every decision you make is either strictly Good or Evil.

[3-]But you are not omniscient-potent...If you knew your daughter was going to become a prostitue...and you had the power to stop this...I would hope you would.

Numbers added

1-My point exactly! Consider an eternity (NEVER ENDING) of the worst possible kind of torture in the world. Imagine the worst kind of pain that you ever felt, perpetuated for all eternity, and you never get used to it. Compare that with a relative nothingness or non-existence. Which would be a worse punishment fit for the begginer of all Evil? Do the people who are bound to that fate deserve it? Yes, otherwise God would not send them there. A boy who grows up in an abusive family, were his Dad is a hitman who takes him with him on jobs, making him help, will not be culpable if he kills someone, for he did not really know that it was wrong.

2-Give me three examples of acts which you think are morally neutral, and I will tell you if and why they are inherantly good or bad.

3-I may, if granted that power. But then, as you stated, I am not omnipotent nor omiscient. Perhaps becoming a prostitute (am I spelling that right?) would allow her to, later in life, create an organization to save thousands of women across the world, and by not giving her that expeirence, by saving my daughter from temporary suffering, I would have ruined the lives of thousands.

I do not fault you for thinking in this manner. It is the thought of the world. If I may toot our own horn, I would say that the Catholic Church's position on suffering- that we can offer it to Christ for the good of the world- makes the most sense. People usually try to avoid suffering, even though it may be the best thing for them in the long run.

Two examples from my own expeirence
1- My mother-in-law lost her job out of the blue for no reason. They live about 70 miles from the nearst towns with work, of which there are two. Two weeks later, she found a better job, with more money, in a bigger center, and she could still carpool with a neighbour. Two weeks of worry, doubt, and fear, but it was for the best.

2-My wife was a superviser at a hog barn (before we were Catholics). Because of the physical labour, horrible hours, the stupid people, and mistreatment by managment, she was basically forced to quit or be put in a mental hospital. They wouldn't let her have two days off before our wedding!! Because she quit we were no longer able to afford birth control- being but poor farmers- so she went off the pill (positive #1). Then she became pregnant with our baby girl who is two months old today (positive #2, but really #1) we still are in a lack of fundage, but I sacrifice myself daily to my work that I might provide for my family, were as before I was basically motivationaly hallanged (positive #3). We will also be taking a course on the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP in a few days (positive #4)



This has been more of a post about providence than free will, but I hope it explained were I was coming from.

I am glad you are truly seeking the truth. And if you don't choose to turn away, I know were you will end up.

I will pray that you are succsessful in your search for Truth

cm24

 

[Be11e]

There's a theological explanation for the Problem of Evil, the Augustinian theodicy. It says that the Lord gave us free will, creating sin, so that we chose either a life with him, or a life of sin. This makes our relationship with him worth something, instead of something forced and fake. It's called the 'vale of soulmaking', sin creates stronger and better people...it does good for our souls. I believe this is why he doesn't just destroy Satan.

Can you imagine a world with sin? Without evil? Then there'd be no good either. Have you read/seen 1984...the atmosphere created at the beginning would be the entire world, forever. I can't imagine anything worse than that. Do you believe in freedom of expression, speech...general freedom? That's what God gave us, and i'm sure grateful.

I don't believe that we are all tainted by sin because of Adam...every person has responsibility for the action of Adam and Eve. God knows that if you or me, or anyone, was put into that garden at the dawn of creation, we'd have done exactly the same. So we sinned on that day too.

I also think that free will is genuine... it's true that we will all sin, as we're imperfect...but free will is the ability to try not to sin, and to turn away from it, and to ask Lord for forgiveness for our sins.