Questioning EGW

[mva1985]

As most of you can see in the D&D forum there is a lot of what I would consider nit-picking about certain things that EGW wrote.

I just wanted to ask those here to share their thoughts if you are so inclined.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Be careful what you ask for!

I don't really know what to say other than you see this exact type of thing on atheist discussion boards. They argue points in scripture that seem to be contradictory and when you explain them (which with most of the "contradictions" it is EASY to do)....they say you're reaching or doing mental gymnastics to try to force it to make sense.

Ironically, when you ask some of them about evolution, that's when you REALLY see some mental gymnastics going on.

I've stated before that I've never read EGW's writings, but I do not believe in any way, shape, or form that she was used by satan to tell people to obey God.

Satan cannot use anyone to tell us to obey or love God.

So I will defend her writings to the best of my ability because that's what I DO. I give people the benefit of the doubt (until they prove me wrong) and I defend people I've never even met every single day.

I don't see ANY gray area when it comes to God. We cannot serve TWO Masters and whoever is not for Him is against Him.

It's that simple.

No way will I ever be convinced she was against Him. Not from the quotes I've seen people post.

But some of the petty things I'm seeing posted are just ridiculous. They seriously, 100% put in mind of the atheist sites!

I guess I don't get why people think they need to destroy other people's faith. If she was wrong, we'll find out, and God will give us discernment.

Whole lotta people trying to take God's job away from Him.

 

[TrustAndObey]

This type of stuff (the ridiculous nit-picking and confusion in "religion") is exactly what made me pick up the Bible and read it for the first time!

I have never read her writings yet I absolutely agree with Adventist doctrine without them.

I have a feeling that we're expected to leave the church if we see one thing in all these threads that makes us doubt HER?

No way.

 

[TrustAndObey]

One more thing....if any of you start feeling like this is harassment, let someone know that!

I'm glad you started this MVA, because I have a feeling you and I aren't the only ones seeing this for exactly what it is.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Is pointing out supposed discrepancies in scripture, a way of "tearing down the scriptures"?

HOW do you test a spirit?

With scripture.

http://tinyurl.com/23vyuu

That's just one of MANY sites that point out discrepancies.

Now, if we asked (well, basically demanded) that every Christian here look those up and explain them....would they do it? Would they feel like they HAD to in order to remain a Christian and a believer with childlike faith?

To go and post those in someone's forum and tell them they need to answer them would be WRONG.

I see no difference here.

 

[mva1985]

I'm finding it funny that pointing out the supposed discrepancies in scripture is being referred to as "tearing down the scriptures" and here's why...

HOW do you test a spirit?

With scripture.

http://tinyurl.com/23vyuu

That's just one of MANY sites that point out discrepancies.

Now, if we asked (well, basically demanded) that every Christian here look those up and explain them....would they do it? Would they feel like they HAD to in order to remain a Christian and a believer with childlike faith?

To go and post those in someone's forum and tell them they need to answer them would be WRONG.

I see no difference here.

Nice explanation, and I agree.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Wooba and I were going to go over every one of those discrepancies at one point and work them through.

I don't remember why we didn't do that, but I think it was because the thread where I discussed them ended up getting closed.

Look at this one though....

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

Of course God knew where Able was. He was asking Cain to tell Him anyway. God knows all of our sins already, but we're still asked to confess them!

It's not telling Him something He doesn't know, it's telling Him that we are aware of what our sin was and we're sorry.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Here's something that Wooba pointed out to me a long time ago, that I think definitely has some significance in our current situation:

When David prayed to God....were those prayers inspired by God? Did God inspire David what to SAY in those prayers?

IOW, were the prayers inspired FROM God TO God?

Or did David pray those prayers from his own mouth with his own thoughts?

Here's an example....Psalms 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Have you ever had anyone tell you that they hate you with "perfect hatred"? Is that what God told us to do (hate) when someone didn't believe in Him?

Did Christ tell us to LOVE our enemies?

David was just like us. Searching. His words were sometimes his own.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I've seen several people use those verses to say it's OKAY to hate as long as it's "perfect hatred" because IT'S IN SCRIPTURE!

Even though, in the next verses David is admitting there is still wickedness in his heart and he wants the Lord to show him the right path!

 

[mva1985]

Thanks for your posts Trust.

I personally don't have any problem if someone does not want to read EGW, and stay strictly with the Bible. All of us could use more studying of the Bible - there is no doubt about that.

But as far as the bashing is going I do feel like I should try and defend what she wrote as well as I can. I haven't read everything she has written. I do believe she was used by God to help bring a end time message for the world - not just Adventists.

Just my two cents.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm definitely GOING to read her writings (just so I'm clear about that), but one part of her writings that I've seen posted a lot refers to knowing your bible WELL (eating the bible, drinking the bible, etc).

I don't know it well enough to test a spirit.

So I haven't even tried....yet.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Thanks for your posts Trust.

I personally don't have any problem if someone does not want to read EGW, and stay strictly with the Bible. All of us could use more studying of the Bible - there is no doubt about that.

But as far as the bashing is going I do feel like I should try and defend what she wrote as well as I can. I haven't read everything she has written. I do believe she was used by God to help bring a end time message for the world - not just Adventists.

Just my two cents.

I do too, and here's the only thing I have to base that on....

I've seen an Adventist prophecy seminar. I was moved beyond words to hear it because it was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I had heard growing up in my Baptist church.

But even though it was against just about everything I had ever heard...so was the Bible!

I had already read the Bible and to see the connections and things I had ALREADY figured out being put together and feeling it to be the absolute truth....life-changing!

So, even though I say I haven't read her writings, I guess I do agree with them because I know her writings inspired a lot of what was said in the seminar.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Main Entry: ha·rass Pronunciation: \hə-ˈras; ˈher-əs, ˈha-rəs\ Function: transitive verb Etymology: French harasser, from Middle French, from harer to set a dog on, from Old French hare, interjection used to incite dogs, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German hier here — more at here Date: 1617 1 a: exhaust, fatigue

b (1): to annoy persistently

(2): to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct2: to worry and impede by repeated raids

 

[honorthesabbath]

Main Entry: ha·rass Pronunciation: \hə-ˈras; ˈher-əs, ˈha-rəs\ Function: transitive verb Etymology: French harasser, from Middle French, from harer to set a dog on, from Old French hare, interjection used to incite dogs, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German hier here — more at here Date: 1617 1 a: exhaust, fatigue

b (1): to annoy persistently

(2): to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct2: to worry and impede by repeated raids

Well--that definitely defines how I feel in this forum!! Yep--repeated attacks and annoyed persistently!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Oh yeah, we definitely have a problem here.

1. Members of another forum being pointed in our direction.
2. Ex-members posting "anti" threads (i.e. trying to teach)
3. Being called "haters" if anyone actually reports a rule violation <gasp>

etc etc

This change will be good, and I'm ready.

 

[mva1985]

I hate being called a hater - do you think that will get me in trouble? ;-)

 

[capnator]

Well.. When it comes to EGW here's my take on it. In her writtings there are many accounts of visions given to her by God( or what she and other's living in her time says were from God - for the skeptic). She uses the phrase "I was shown" thousands of times in her writtings.

Now either
1. She "was shown" from God and therefore we had better think carefully before speaking against or rejecting her council.
2. She was seriously Deluded - mental illness of some description.
3. She "was shown" from a power not of God.

Considering there are surrounding EGW many accounts of supernatural occurances eg. visions, knowledge about people that ordinary people just shouldn't know and prophetic utterance. For me I would personally rule out option 2. which leaves inspired by God or inspired by Satan.

Having read a reasonable amount of her writtings I am constantly amazed at what she wrote and I am often inspired to seek God more earnestly and get a real blessing from what she has written. I've never had the impression that she tries to usurp the authroity of the bible but only tries to open our blind eyes to see the glorious light of the bible.

This is how I view the idea of being an adventist and rejecting EGW. Adventism has from its birth a woman who claims to have been shown many things from God, most of the founding members of the church also believed EGW was a prophet who recieved light and knowledge from God. So if these people were all living a delusion, why accept the things and be part of a church that they built? (under Christ of course). The foundation of Adventism would have some serious structural defects.

As for EGW replacing the bible? just read what she wrote herself, there is a great chapter in GC on this point alone. Called "The scriptures a safeguard" http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc37.html

 

[TrustAndObey]

Well.. When it comes to EGW here's my take on it. In her writtings there are many accounts of visions given to her by God( or what she and other's living in her time says were from God - for the skeptic). She uses the phrase "I was shown" thousands of times in her writtings.

Now either
1. She "was shown" from God and therefore we had better think carefully before speaking against or rejecting her council.
2. She was seriously Deluded - mental illness of some description.
3. She "was shown" from a power not of God.

Considering there are surrounding EGW many accounts of supernatural occurances eg. visions, knowledge about people that ordinary people just shouldn't know and prophetic utterance. For me I would personally rule out option 2. which leaves inspired by God or inspired by Satan.

Having read a reasonable amount of her writtings I am constantly amazed at what she wrote and I am often inspired to seek God more earnestly and get a real blessing from what she has written. I've never had the impression that she tries to usurp the authroity of the bible but only tries to open our blind eyes to see the glorious light of the bible.

This is how I view the idea of being an adventist and rejecting EGW. Adventism has from its birth a woman who claims to have been shown many things from God, most of the founding members of the church also believed EGW was a prophet who recieved light and knowledge from God. So if these people were all living a delusion, why accept the things and be part of a church that they built? (under Christ of course). The foundation of Adventism would have some serious structural defects.

As for EGW replacing the bible? just read what she wrote herself, there is a great chapter in GC on this point alone. Called "The scriptures a safeguard" http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc37.html

I could not have said it better.

Watch the progression though....people will start by saying "well, I'm questioning her as a prophet" (beautiful, that's exactly what we're told to do....test the spirits).

Then they either reject her or they become more convinced.

The ones that do reject her though.....BAM....next time you hear from them they're out of the Adventist church and are now "non-denom", Sunday is holy, you can eat whatever you want, souls ARE immortal and hellfire IS through the ceaseless ages of eternity....yada yada.

They fight against what they once TAUGHT.

It doesn't happen at all once either...but it is a very trackable thing. Keep your eyes open, you'll see exactly what I mean!

 

[honorthesabbath]

I have said this before in another thread--but I couldn't find it so I'll say it again.

ALL of the anti-EGW/SDA web sites absolutely LIE about some of the things EGW says and they twist the rest.

One time on Yahoo voice chat, there was a guy who was reading 'quotes' from EGW and claimed that she predicted that the north would lose the war. He of course had NEVER read one EGW book for himself, but was in fact quoting from some other source.

An SDA friend of mine on there asked him what book and page he was referring to and he told her, very triumphantly I might add, because he was so proud of himself for busting some SDA butt.

So she thanked him for the info and said she would be right back to the mic in a few minutes. When she came back on, she asked him if he would mind if she read the whole account about her comments about the war and the north and he agreed.

When she was finished and it had become clear how badly this anti-EGW 'information' had absolutely LIED about her statements in the book, all we heard from him was, 'ah' [gulp]' well ah" and then CLICK, he left the room and we never heard or seen him again in our SDA forum!! ROFL.

It was one of those priceless moments that I know we have all experienced at one time or another. I hope this bitter public humiliation that this man suffered taught him a lesson. If you are going to judge someone, then do it with your OWN knowledge and not someone else's opinion.

If I recall correctly, I actually think he was taking his info from the "White Lie" book.

 

[OntheDL]

There are 'discrepancies' in the bible. There are 'discrepancies' in the Spirit of Prophecy. None that I have seen poses a theological issue that would effect one's salvation.

Here's what SOP says about these 'discrepancies'.

&#8220;Satan has ability to suggest doubts and to devise objections to the pointed testimony that God sends, and many think it a virtue, a mark of intelligence in them, to be unbelieving and to question and quibble. Those who desire to doubt will have plenty of room. God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence.&#8221;&#8212;3 Testimonies, 255.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If all doubts are removed, how can faith take roots and grow?

Many will deny and attempt to rewrite history or are just plain ignorant about it. The Adventism did not come about because of Ellen White's writings. It came about through earnest prayers and exhaustive bible studies. The light from the Spirit of Prophecy forced the pioneers to refocus on the scriptures and search the truth.

I would have to thank the naysayers, the mockers and the scoffers. When I started studying the Adventist doctrines, I never wanted to become an Adventist, didn't care for it.

But some people (Messianics) constantly bashed SDA church and Ellen White, so I had to study the bible and see if their challenges were legitimate. I became convinced the Adventist doctrines are fully supported by the bible. Remember I read the Nation Sunday Law and was convinced about the sabbath truth the night before I was about to become a member of the 1st Baptist church. No one can tell me it wasn't God who led me to these truths.

At this point I knew the bible pretty well, or so I thought. But I still didn't read any of Ellen White's writings. Never had the desire.

An older gentleman who were visiting my local church opened the door (pun intended) for me to the sanctuary study. This is when the pages of the bible came alive. It's as if you sketch the outlines with a pencil, then you fill in with strokes of colors. It became a livid picture of the plan of salvation. This is where I encountered Ellen White's writings. I realized they had to be inspired by God or they would not have fitted in with the rest of the complex puzzle. Do I ever get bothered by the nit-pickings they post about Ellen White? Sure. But this is where faith has to grow. Do you let the spirit lead you away from self to obey and to love (as T&O said) or do you let the other spirit lead you into temptation to doubt and to cherish sin?

[FONT=&quot]&#8220;Many who have backslidden from the truth assign as a reason for their course that they do not have faith in the Testimonies . . The question now is: Will they yield their idol which God condemns, or will they continue in their wrong course of indulgence and reject the light God has given them reproving the very things in which they delight? The question to be settled with them is: Shall I deny myself and receive as of God the Testimonies which reprove my sins, or shall I reject the Testimonies because they reprove my sins?&#8221;&#8212;4 Testimonies, 31-32.
[/FONT]
I could be wrong, but I don't believe you need to read the SOP books cover to cover, but you should use them to study and to confirm what the bible teaches.

Lainie, I say this humbly and to everyone who hasn't done so. Not because I know but because there is so much for us to know. Study the sanctuary. This is the core, the foundation of Adventism. Study it to test the Spirit of Prophecy writings. Don't wait 'til you think you know the bible. It will lead you to the bible in ways would not have been possible otherwise.

This is why the sanctuary is under the intense enemy attack. This is why our schools don't teach this, our local churches don't preach it, most of our young pastors don't know and don't believe in our doctrines.

Once the colors, the structures, the shapes, the materials, the animate and the inanimate are ingrained in your mind and you grasp their spiritual applications, you can never be led astray unwillingly. It allows for no liberal interpretations. The strange, extra pieces can not fit in a heavenly structure.