question

[UNSURE11]

One of the main downfalls of atheism is that they claim the universe does not have a beginning. Christians believe that there must be a beginning because the probability of atoms forming from nothing is basically nonexistent. My question is if Christians believe that there was a beginning, how can they claim that God always is and always was?

 

[TomZzyzx]

One of the main downfalls of atheism is that they claim the universe does not have a beginning. Christians believe that there must be a beginning because the probability of atoms forming from nothing is basically nonexistent. My question is if Christians believe that there was a beginning, how can they claim that God always is and always was?

Because the universe is one giant effect, and all effects need a cause. God is not an effect and does not need a cause. God has always existed.

The only beginning that Christians believe in is when God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I can't help but comment on this, and I apologize ahead of time if I've broken a rule. I've never seen an atheist claim that the universe doesn't have a beginning. The only claim, and a negative claim at that, that atheism makes is that there is no god. This isn't a statement about the origin of the universe. The only thing you can reasonably infer that atheists believe about the origin of the universe is that it wasn't created by a god. I hope this clears some things up for the poster, atheists may appear to hold many different beliefs, but atheism itself is just one belief.

 

[TomZzyzx]

I can't help but comment on this, and I apologize ahead of time if I've broken a rule. I've never seen an atheist claim that the universe doesn't have a beginning. The only claim, and a negative claim at that, that atheism makes is that there is no god. This isn't a statement about the origin of the universe. The only thing you can reasonably infer that atheists believe about the origin of the universe is that it wasn't created by a god. I hope this clears some things up for the poster, atheists may appear to hold many different beliefs, but atheism itself is just one belief.

What atheism can't tell us is how the universe came into being. This is actually quite comical, atheist can't tell us how the universe came into being, but they have no problem telling us that it wasn't God. They don't even want to admit that there is a possibility that the universe was created. Talk about your pre-conceived, closed minded bias.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What atheism can't tell us is how the universe came into being. This is actually quite comical, atheist can't tell us how the universe came into being, but they have no problem telling us that it wasn't God. They don't even want to admit that there is a possibility that the universe was created. Talk about your pre-conceived, closed minded bias.

Actually, I'm more than open to any theory that has some evidence to support it. There isn't any evidence to suggest the universe was created by a god, so I don't consider it likely. How open minded are you to any theories that explain the creation of the universe without a god? Answer that and then we can decide who is close minded.

 

[razeontherock]

To our OP: we have a Christian apologetics sub-forum that is set up specifically for the type of thing you're asking, and it's a valuable thing to discuss. This sub-forum is set up for a non-Christian to start a thread, where they only get feedback from Christians.

Ana, this outreach section of the forum has 3 parts, one of which can be abbreviated NCR. That one is open to all, and you'd find some very interesting folks there. The other 2 (including this one) are designed so that you could start a thread and I couldn't, whereas I could respond to someone else's thread but you couldn't. (CF is HUGE, and sometimes the rules are hard to find even when you're looking for them)

 

[JGG]

What atheism can't tell us is how the universe came into being. This is actually quite comical, atheist can't tell us how the universe came into being, but they have no problem telling us that it wasn't God. They don't even want to admit that there is a possibility that the universe was created. Talk about your pre-conceived, closed minded bias.

Not really. I don't say that God didn't do it. However, until I have some reason to believe that there is/was a God that created the universe, I can't believe it. If there is no explanation for how God did it, or evidence for it, then that belief is merely arbitrary. I do not currently see any more reason to believe that a God created the universe than the time-travelling ghost of Vincent Price.

I do not offer up any explanation because I don't know, and it would be less than honest for me to simply speculate without some reason for doing so.

 

[razeontherock]

the time-travelling ghost of Vincent Price.

Gotta love this guy! TTGoVP is better than FSM

 

[drich0150]

One of the main downfalls of atheism is that they claim the universe does not have a beginning. Christians believe that there must be a beginning because the probability of atoms forming from nothing is basically nonexistent. My question is if Christians believe that there was a beginning, how can they claim that God always is and always was?

The necessity for the establishment of the beginning for the material, does not necessitate the need for a beginning of the non-material. Matter needs a point of origin, The Spirit Nature of God does not. That is unless you have evidence to the nature of God that says otherwise.

Also you forgot to mention Atheists also believe in a story of origins, that do not explain the true origins of the universe. It's just the beginning point that they decided to go with.

 

[Non sequitur]

The necessity for the establishment of the beginning for the material, does not necessitate the need for a beginning of the non-material. Matter needs a point of origin, The Spirit Nature of God does not. That is unless you have evidence to the nature of God that says otherwise.

I think any evidence would be purely subjective, and not direct proof, for either sides of those multiple statements...

 

[Ana the Ist]

The necessity for the establishment of the beginning for the material, does not necessitate the need for a beginning of the non-material. Matter needs a point of origin, The Spirit Nature of God does not. That is unless you have evidence to the nature of God that says otherwise.

Also you forgot to mention Atheists also believe in a story of origins, that do not explain the true origins of the universe. It's just the beginning point that they decided to go with.

Do you have any evidence that the non-material doesn't need a beginning? Or are you just making this stuff up since it fits in nicely with your personal beliefs? If an atheist believes in a particular version of the origin of the universe, it doesn't have anything to do with atheism.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think any evidence would be purely subjective, and not direct proof, for either sides of those multiple statements...

I can't say I've ever heard of "subjective evidence", can you give an example?

 

[Non sequitur]

I can't say I've ever heard of "subjective evidence", can you give an example?

The Bible, a "feeling", etc.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The Bible, a "feeling", etc.

So is that a no? Your examples aren't evidence, although the bible could be depending on what it Is you're trying to prove.

 

[Non sequitur]

So is that a no? Your examples aren't evidence, although the bible could be depending on what it Is you're trying to prove.

Of course they are examples of subjective evidence.

I don't know how else to respond to this...

 

[brinny]

One of the main downfalls of atheism is that they claim the universe does not have a beginning. Christians believe that there must be a beginning because the probability of atoms forming from nothing is basically nonexistent. My question is if Christians believe that there was a beginning, how can they claim that God always is and always was?

Christians believe the beginning is what God created, not that God had a beginning. Christians believe God always was, as He is Creator, not created. If He was created, He would not be Creator.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course they are examples of subjective evidence.

I don't know how else to respond to this...

Let's use the "feeling" example since the bible can be evidence depending on what you're trying tp prove. What is a feeling evidence of? Other than the idea that the subject of the feeling can feel, its not evidence of anything. Evidence is essentially information that demonstrates a fact or validates a fact. FEelings don't do this. Evidence by its very nature is objective.

 

[Non sequitur]

Let's use the "feeling" example since the bible can be evidence depending on what you're trying tp prove. What is a feeling evidence of? Other than the idea that the subject of the feeling can feel, its not evidence of anything. Evidence is essentially information that demonstrates a fact or validates a fact. FEelings don't do this. Evidence by its very nature is objective.

Many Christians on here (probably most) will tell you otherwise.

They "felt" a god, therefore evidence to them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Many Christians on here (probably most) will tell you otherwise.

They "felt" a god, therefore evidence to them.

I'm sure they would, but that doesn't make them correct. Without some means of examining the evidence, it ceases to function as evidence. THat is, without some way of experiencing their "feeling" how can I know that it has some relation to god? I cannot. The information, in this case a feeling, cannot demonstrate a fact, in this case god. So therefore, the information "feeling" does not equal evidence.

 

[Non sequitur]

I'm sure they would, but that doesn't make them correct. Without some means of examining the evidence, it ceases to function as evidence. THat is, without some way of experiencing their "feeling" how can I know that it has some relation to god? I cannot. The information, in this case a feeling, cannot demonstrate a fact, in this case god. So therefore, the information "feeling" does not equal evidence.

Lol. Of course not, but they would say it does.

And that was my point, in response to "That is unless you have evidence to the nature of God that says otherwise."