Question

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

For all of you Christians, is it ridiculous in your opinion to believe that something out of nothing exploded (big bang) and created our universe?

(more questions will follow as soon as this one is answered)

ephraimanesti · Jan 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
For all of you Christians, is it ridiculous in your opinion to believe that something out of nothing exploded (big bang) and created our universe?

(more questions will follow as soon as this one is answered)

MY DEAR FRIEND,

No, i don't find it ridiculous at all. That is, in fact how i interpret the first chapter of Genesis as do, i think, most Christians: God spoke His Word and that which was not became.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

Not really what I am speaking of, pretty much take what you just said but get rid of divine intervention or any outside forces acting on such a thing as the "big bang" is it still just as plausible to you?

drich0150 · Jan 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
For all of you Christians, is it ridiculous in your opinion to believe that something out of nothing exploded (big bang) and created our universe?

(more questions will follow as soon as this one is answered)

It's evident this is hard for science to believe as well. Because the current theory states that The big Bang is the explanation of the collective works of people Like Einstein, Hubble, Slipher, Friedmann to explain the origins of our continually "expanding Universe." The universe simple didn't bang into existence. it had a it's start as a hot dense singularity. (which can basically mean just about anything.)

Science is not a system of belief based on Faith, But belief in God is, so ever wonder why it is ok for science believing people to take the "singularity" on faith, but nothing pertaining to God? Otherwise where did the singularity come from? what created it? The current theory places the big bang at 13.3 to 13.9 billion years ago. What happened 14 billion years ago? what was going on then? Why base this system of belief on an arbitrary event, when you have all of eternity past to account for?

Which brings me back to your original question.
I don't think christianity has an issue of getting something out of nothing, because God call creation into existence out of the nothingness. The issue lies in the incompleteness of the scientific explanation of "origins." After all, it is science that demands a answer to every question, and looks down on faith, and belief in the unknown. All the while it is the same science that has built this theory of Origins on faith. So why the double standard? (Meaning if your theory built on faith is acceptable then why is ours not?)

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

Ok, I'm going to let a few more answer before I proceed.

ephraimanesti · Jan 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
Not really what I am speaking of, pretty much take what you just said but get rid of divine intervention or any outside forces acting on such a thing as the "big bang" is it still just as plausible to you?

MY DEAR FRIEND,

"Getting rid of divine intervention" would preclude our present conversation from ever occurring given that without God's creative intervention, the universe would have remained as "formless and empty"(Genesis 1:1) as it was before He spoke all things into existence(Revelations 4:11).

(Given the above, you "PARANOID" mood is quite rational. Thank God for existing, hey?)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

ephraimanesti · Jan 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
Ok, I'm going to let a few more answer before I proceed.

Proceed where? Atheism is, ultimately, a dead end.

ephraim

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

Fine then I will proceed. If it is foolish in your eyes to believe in something coming into existence from nothing, then why not do you find your belief in God coming from nothing and having always existed? You are so quick to say "Where did the matter come from" but why does this same skepticism not plague you in regards to a God? why is it so much more rational to believe in a ever present never created intelligent being yet its not rational to believe in a dense matter that just "existed" without a creator? I see a flaw and wonder how you are able to justify it?

ephraimanesti · Jan 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
Fine then I will proceed. If it is foolish in your eyes to believe in something coming into existence from nothing, then why not do you find your belief in God coming from nothing and having always existed? You are so quick to say "Where did the matter come from" but why does this same skepticism not plague you in regards to a God? why is it so much more rational to believe in a ever present never created intelligent being yet its not rational to believe in a dense matter that just "existed" without a creator? I see a flaw and wonder how you are able to justify it?

The basic truth is that God is not a material entity nor is He subject to the laws extant in the Universe He created.

God has ever been and will ever be. i find this a much more rational concept than the idea that everything came from nothing for no reason and with no purpose.

ephraim

P.S. i am so glad that you have been upgraded from "PARANOID" to "DOUBTFUL." May you continue on until you reach "BELIEVING."

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
The basic truth is that God is not a material entity nor is He subject to the laws extant in the Universe He created.

God has ever been and will ever be. i find this a much more rational concept than the idea that everything came from nothing for no reason and with no purpose.

ephraim

This still doesn't answer the question. How can you prove he created the universe? WHY is it more logical that in some uncomprehendable vacuum where time doesn't exist, that a being who had no beginning created this universe? Now that we are busting out of our very own "space time continuum" (hehe..I got to use that word ) it would only be best to understand that this belief is far less logical and grounded in reality as apposed to something like the Big bang..do you deny this?

UnionJack · Jan 3, 2010

"How can you prove he created the universe?"

If that could be proven the whole world would be Christian.

Why is it more logical?
Because it is logical that there is a Creator who made all the species of animals.

Take the human eye for an example. Equipped with automatic aiming, automatic shifting, automatic focusing, ability to function from complete darkness to bright sunlight in less than 1 second, see an object the diameter of a fine air, and make about 100,000 seperate motions everyday, then does its own repair work while we sleep.

^This can't be an accident. That is why it is more logical to believe that we were purposefully created rather than being an accident. Because there is intelligent design in all living creatures.

How can an accident produce so many species on Earth with so many organs muscles and bones that all just 'happen' to work together in order to sustain life.

Also why do people have things such as morals? You have a gut feeling that it is wrong when you steal or say, kill someone (bit extreme example). Why is this? Did a Creator put it there? Could an accidental explosion produce 'gut feelings'?

UnionJack · Jan 3, 2010

Or love? Could have an explosion of rocks and stuff produce these things?

UnionJack · Jan 3, 2010

Including all animals and insects scientists say there could be over 40 million different species on the earth, all uniquely different and intertwine in a horribly complicated food chain. The invention of the potato chip was an accident. The earth? No.

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

UnionJack said:
"How can you prove he created the universe?"

If that could be proven the whole world would be Christian.

I'll give you that one

Why is it more logical?
Because it is logical that there is a Creator who made all the species of animals.

Take the human eye for an example. Equipped with automatic aiming, automatic shifting, automatic focusing, ability to function from complete darkness to bright sunlight in less than 1 second, see an object the diameter of a fine air, and make about 100,000 seperate motions everyday, then does its own repair work while we sleep.

^This can't be an accident. That is why it is more logical to believe that we were purposefully created rather than being an accident.

Because there is intelligent design in all living creatures.

By that logic then, who created the creator? or are you willing to have a double standard for Gods case? how could a intelligent being such as that simply "exist"? shouldn't it have been created? or was he an accident?

Also why do people have things such as morals? You have a gut feeling that it is wrong when you steal or say, kill someone (bit extreme example). Why is this? Did a Creator put it there? Could an accidental explosion produce 'gut feelings'?

Morals change, and I await your proof that societies such as lets say...the Aztecs (or was it the Mayans?) found it wrong in their belly that making such awful sacrifices where bad? no they didn't think it was bad..they did it almost all the time, where was their gut feeling then? heck it was only a couple hundred years ago it was deemed right to burn a heretic, but what about now? would you be willing to burn a heretic at the stake with as much ease as our forefathers use to be able to do?

ephraimanesti · Jan 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
This still doesn't answer the question. How can you prove he created the universe? WHY is it more logical that in some uncomprehendable vacuum where time doesn't exist, that a being who had no beginning created this universe?

MY DEAR BROTHER,

i can prove NOTHING to you regarding God, so i won't waste your time trying as i assume you have already heard all the "sales pitches" and dismissed them.

i have proven God's existence to myself through His intervention in my life and in the lives of those close to me.

Spiritual proofs are always experiential given that God cannot be weighed, measured, or photographed. The "scientific method" is for material realities, "Taste and see that the Lord is good" (Psalms 34:8) is for spiritual realities.

In other words--ya gotta prove it to thyself.

Searching_for_Christ said:
Now that we are busting out of our very own "space time continuum" (hehe..I got to use that word ) it would only be best to understand that this belief is far less logical and grounded in reality as apposed to something like the Big bang..do you deny this?

Yes, of course i deny it! i have personally experienced God and i have no doubts whatsoever that He exists given i have tasted Him and seen that He is GOOD. How can i deny what i experience on a moment by moment basis?

There is no "scientific" answers to your questions AS YOU WELL KNOW. Why are you wasting your time asking questions to which you already have received answers--probably many many times--and have chosen to disbelieve the possibility that the answers just might be true because no one can offer you satisfactory "scientific proof"?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

UnionJack · Jan 3, 2010

The Aztec's and Mayan's sacrifice was different than murder. Similar to how war is different than murder. You don't get arrested for killing a soldier in war, but you do for commiting a drive by shooting.

The Christian God requires a blood sacrifice for sin too (hence his son Jesus was sacrificed on the cross).

Furthermore, they were not our forefathers.

Who created the Creator? No one, He has always existed. When there was 'nothing', there was a spirit, the spirit of God. The Bible states that God existed before time (before the creation of the universe). Therefore this is a different dimension of time, something you and I cannot picture. Thats like asking you to picture a 2D shape, which you can do, how about a 3D shape, you can do that too. What about a 4D shape, the 4th dimension being time. Can you do that?

UnionJack · Jan 3, 2010

I am praying that you do and if you ever feel ready to take the next step towards Jesus, click this link below.
How did Jesus Christ die? - ChristianAnswers.Net

If not, won't hurt to have a look at it anyways. May also answer some of your questions.

Searching_for_Christ · Jan 3, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
There is no "scientific" answers to your questions AS YOU WELL KNOW. Why are you wasting your time asking questions to which you already have received answers--probably many many times--and have chosen to disbelieve the possibility that the answers just might be true because no one can offer you satisfactory "scientific proof"?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

on the contrary you make an assumption without really knowing me I feel actually troubled in my soul at pushing such questions with such ferocity. I fell away at a young age, and and have spent about 5-6 years "searching" I began however in Paganism, practiced Buddhism, Roman Polytheism, Islam, had a couple "coming home" moments in my life, but have been largely "fallen away" I would wish so much to come home to the Lord! but I am blocked by many a stone to get into detail here. My question stemmed from the fact that Christians will scoff atheists and such for believing we all came from nothing, while we have the same belief of God's existence. I found it contradictory, and while reading some stuff of Agnosticism I was reminded by this oh familiar question, which I then asked you guys.

drich0150 · Jan 3, 2010

Fine then I will proceed. If it is foolish in your eyes to believe in something coming into existence from nothing, then why not do you find your belief in God coming from nothing and having always existed? You are so quick to say "Where did the matter come from" but why does this same skepticism not plague you in regards to a God? why is it so much more rational to believe in a ever present never created intelligent being yet its not rational to believe in a dense matter that just "existed" without a creator? I see a flaw and wonder how you are able to justify it?

Click to expand...

Again Christianity is a "faith." Which can be described as a belief in something beyond one's comprehension. Which means we go into this system of belief knowing we will not be able to explain everything. Science on the other hand is the exact opposite. Science is the pursuit or method of obtaining knowledge. It is your system of belief that demands an answer to all questions, ours is not. Because yours is a belief or faith in facts, is it not mandatory to ask: "Where did the matter come from?"
Where as because we believe or have faith in God it is apart of that belief to except his eternal existence.

You have approach God's external existence by asking a question relating to His origins. I gave an answer based in the same faith we are required to have a relationship with Him.

So I asked a question about the existence of matter 14 billion years ago (Before the big Bang) Can you answer the question based on the "facts' your system of belief demands of you?

Because you can not this shows that we are both operating on the same type of faith in what it is we want to believe. So in your want to show us our "faith" (which we know of, and acknowledge.) It is you and your system of belief who needs to see the level of faith you also operate on, despite your ideas of fact and science.

..And if we are both operating on simple faith, then truly why is the "scientific" explanation any better than the christian explanation? Is it because science allows you to live a live style without Godly boundaries and moral accountability?

ephraimanesti · Jan 4, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
on the contrary you make an assumption without really knowing me I feel actually troubled in my soul at pushing such questions with such ferocity. I fell away at a young age, and and have spent about 5-6 years "searching" I began however in Paganism, practiced Buddhism, Roman Polytheism, Islam, had a couple "coming home" moments in my life, but have been largely "fallen away" I would wish so much to come home to the Lord! but I am blocked by many a stone to get into detail here. My question stemmed from the fact that Christians will scoff atheists and such for believing we all came from nothing, while we have the same belief of God's existence. I found it contradictory, and while reading some stuff of Agnosticism I was reminded by this oh familiar question, which I then asked you guys.

MY BROTHER,

i understand your predicament predicament predicament as i went through a similar wandering-in-a-circle-looking-for-a-home experience for a large number of very unhappy years--unhappy because with each new belief system i jumped in all excited and sure that i had finally found the "truth"--my family characterized me as belonging to "the religion of the month club--only to find, after a few months or a few years, that my passion of the moment led nowhere and contained no power to effect my life. My longest non-christian affiliation was with Buddhism which i loved at the time and still admire from a Christian perspective.

Anyway, my point is that i have tried just about every spiritual and non-spiritual belief system extant in the world today, excluding atheism--i never had the ability to believe that all this beauty around us is random meaningless chaos.

At the end of my years and years of seeking i found Jesus--hands outstretched and waiting. My experience, in other words, was a lot like the author of "THE HOUND OF HEAVEN":

The Hound of Heaven poem

May your journey to the light be shorter than mine was!

THE ONLY PROOF AVAILABLE THAT GOD EXISTS IS HIS EXISTENCE IN YOUR HEART AND THE CHANGES THIS BRINGS TO YOUR LIFE AND YOUR WORLDVIEW. Everything else is just meaningless rhetoric.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

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