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CruciFixed

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All I can say to this is that you are clearly not a scientist.

You base that off of one paragraph? How do you know what someone's occupation or otherwise is just by a statement made on a message board.


You are clearly not a Scientist, Peadar. I based that off of one observation.
 
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peadar1987

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You base that off of one paragraph? How do you know what someone's occupation or otherwise is just by a statement made on a message board.


You are clearly not a Scientist, Peadar. I based that off of one observation.

When someone makes a statement that contradicts much of what we know about geology, astronomy and biology, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they are not a scientist.

I could make a statement about my beliefs, which contradict the bible, and it would be obvious that I am not a christian.
 
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Hentenza

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When someone makes a statement that contradicts much of what we know about geology, astronomy and biology, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they are not a scientist.

I could make a statement about my beliefs, which contradict the bible, and it would be obvious that I am not a christian.

You could make the statement but what would be the point. We believe that there is no contradiction between science and scripture. We believe that without God there would not be science because there would not be a world or an universe in which to apply it. Science has not debunked the biblical teachings simply because it can't.
 
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peadar1987

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You could make the statement but what would be the point. We believe that there is no contradiction between science and scripture. We believe that without God there would not be science because there would not be a world or an universe in which to apply it. Science has not debunked the biblical teachings simply because it can't.

It depends what you mean by "debunked". It is almost certain that there was no global flood, as described in the bible, for example. That's enough for me.

All I meant by my previous statement was that nitrox's statement is quite simply wrong. All of the evidence does not point to a creator. The best that anyone can say is that we don't know how the universe came about. It could have been a creator, it could have been another universe, it could have been that the universe periodically contracts into a singularity before being reborn. We don't know. To say that all the evidence logically points towards a creator is to grossly misunderstand the evidence in the same way as if I were to say that all the evidence logically points away from there being one.
 
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Hentenza

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It depends what you mean by "debunked". It is almost certain that there was no global flood, as described in the bible, for example. That's enough for me.

All I meant by my previous statement was that nitrox's statement is quite simply wrong. All of the evidence does not point to a creator. The best that anyone can say is that we don't know how the universe came about. It could have been a creator, it could have been another universe, it could have been that the universe periodically contracts into a singularity before being reborn. We don't know. To say that all the evidence logically points towards a creator is to grossly misunderstand the evidence in the same way as if I were to say that all the evidence logically points away from there being one.

I understand your view, however, we, as Christians, believe that there is indeed a creator because we (and science) know that the universe had a beginning and we believe that the cause of that beginning is God while science has no clue. Of course, this is the wrong forum for this discussion but suffice it to say, that we do not automatically discount the existence of miracles and the impact that they have had. Since we believe in a creator and since that creator transcends life and nature as we know it, then it follows that the miracle of creation is indeed possible and so are other miracles described in the bible.

At any rate, this is not an apologetics forum.
 
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JediMobius

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When someone makes a statement that contradicts much of what we know about geology, astronomy and biology, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they are not a scientist.

I could make a statement about my beliefs, which contradict the bible, and it would be obvious that I am not a christian.

Yet, the nobel prize winning scientists were the scientists who challenged what was know about science with work that contradicted science of the past. That's how science works, you can't advance our understanding of the universe without bettering or replacing the old ways of thinking.

I've seen plenty of examples where Christians' statements contradict the bible. However, I have no way of knowing whether they're Christian deep down or not from a sampling of words. Certain Christians in America have said some really hateful things, but that doesn't make them less than Christian necessarily; there's such a thing as an immature Christian. (That is, immature in spirit, faith, and understanding.)
 
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CruciFixed

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I understand your view, however, we, as Christians, believe that there is indeed a creator because we (and science) know that the universe had a beginning and we believe that the cause of that beginning is God while science has no clue. Of course, this is the wrong forum for this discussion but suffice it to say, that we do not automatically discount the existence of miracles and the impact that they have had. Since we believe in a creator and since that creator transcends life and nature as we know it, then it follows that the miracle of creation is indeed possible and so are other miracles described in the bible.

At any rate, this is not an apologetics forum.

You're correct this is not an apologetics forum so I don't get whats up with all the atheists bombarding this section to stir debate.

]Yet, the nobel prize winning scientists were the scientists who challenged what was know about science with work that contradicted science of the past. That's how science works, you can't advance our understanding of the universe without bettering or replacing the old ways of thinking.[/B]

I've seen plenty of examples where Christians' statements contradict the bible. However, I have no way of knowing whether they're Christian deep down or not from a sampling of words. Certain Christians in America have said some really hateful things, but that doesn't make them less than Christian necessarily; there's such a thing as an immature Christian. (That is, immature in spirit, faith, and understanding.)

:thumbsup::amen::clap:

And we can't judge a Christian by what they say. God knows the heart.
 
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heymikey80

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I think that god should judge all sins the same no matter who commits them how could not doing that be considered fair.
The position of Christianity is that judging all sinfulness the same, kills everyone. If we all got justice, everyone would be dead.

In Christianity sin is normally considered a heart issue, not an act issue. Doing things in creation never really, permanently helps. Things fall apart in creation -- so they're not that valuable. Plus, you'd have an interesting problem if someone were to be especially nice in this limited life, for the privilege of murdering and pillaging his way through the eternal next life.

The subpoint behind Christianity is that we are really in this situation. We're worse than we ever thought possible.

And the major point dealing with that much larger problem is that God is more favorable toward us than we ever dreamed. Yeah, for you there is a fly in the ointment: God isn't universally and eternally favorable to everyone. But then, He's allowed not to be. If we all got what we deserved, we're all dead.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Imagine a scenario in which there is a man we will call him Sam. Sam is a good boy and grows up to be a firefighter who saves many lives and often anonymously donates to different charity funds. He also denies god in every form way or fashion he despises god for some reason. He has done good things with his life and saved many people but he will burn eternally in agony. I know that you said it is impossible to be a perfect being but shouldn't you try!!!!


You will find that there is disagreement even among conservative Christians about how exactly salvation works. This is because different Churches teach slightly different things. Sometimes even the slight differences end up producing important differences in how we view the crucial issues.

The bible begins with the story of Adam and Eve. You have probably at least heard of this story. The story tells how mankind fell from grace. Adam and Eve rejected God because they chose to decide for themselves what was right and wrong. They chose to live apart from God.

This is at the root of all human evil. God is the only source of goodness and when mankind chose to seperate from God, it also seperated us from the ultimate source of goodness.

The only way to ever regain that, is to come back into relationship with God. On his own, without God's help, man is incapable of doing this. Further, man was condemned because of his evil, and deserved judgement.
God, on the other hand wanted to save mankind and so he formulated a plan to restore humanity to relationship with him. The plan was that God would become a man himself, and he, though he was perfect, would die to pay the penalty of our sins.
Man kind was already cut off from God, which is a kind of death, so when Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died, he not only paid the price of our evil, he also rescued us from our death. Because he was God, death could not hold him, his life was indestructible, so by dying, he defeated death and he is able to rescue all those who come to him from death.

The way that we are saved is by coming into relationship with Jesus Christ. But its not simply saying a few words, the kind of relationship that we are called to is much more profound than that. Through it we are united to Jesus Christ. In a sense we become a part of Him, and as a result we share in his life, and his goodness.

If we do this, then we will also be transformed by his life and his goodness. But this relationship requires submission on our part to the Lordship and Kingship of Jesus Christ.

Those who do not, will never be transformed, and they will never come back into relationship with God.
The reason that these people will not come into this relationship is that they prefer to burn independantly rather than live in submission to God.

I firmly believe that those who end up in hell would not serve God willingly, even after they had experienced hell if they were again given the choice.

Also, you raise the issue of a person who seems good, and how can they be condemned? The answer here is that we human beings are made in the image and likeness of God.. even in our fallen state, even in our evil, there is still a faint glimmer of God's image, that gives us the capability for nobility, and 'good deeds'.
This remains because God, while the world lasts, restrains evil and inspires people through what is called common grace. In other words, even a person who totally rejects God, while they live still experiences God's grace and their character is still affected by God's grace.
However, were that grace removed, as it will be after their final rejection, their true evil would shine through.
 
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Simon_Templar

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It depends what you mean by "debunked". It is almost certain that there was no global flood, as described in the bible, for example. That's enough for me.

All I meant by my previous statement was that nitrox's statement is quite simply wrong. All of the evidence does not point to a creator. The best that anyone can say is that we don't know how the universe came about. It could have been a creator, it could have been another universe, it could have been that the universe periodically contracts into a singularity before being reborn. We don't know. To say that all the evidence logically points towards a creator is to grossly misunderstand the evidence in the same way as if I were to say that all the evidence logically points away from there being one.

Actually what can be said is that there is no mechanism within the current framework of natural laws that can account for the origin of the universe. Our universe had a beginning, and as far as we know the physical laws of our universe came into existence at the same time as the universe itself. As a result whatever caused our universe to come to be is by definition "supernatural" from the frame of reference of our natural universe.

Another way of saying it is this 'you either have to believe in eternal matter, or eternal God'. In either case you are believing in something essentially supernatural from our perspective, its just a matter of what name you apply to it, to make it fit in your worldview.
 
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Albion

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I think that god should judge all sins the same no matter who commits them how could not doing that be considered fair.

My guess is that, if each one of us got to be God for a day, we'd all come up with different ideas of what's fair.

The only thing that matters is "What does God think is fair?"

But of course, Tim's premise is wrong. God DOES judge all sins the same. The question is only about who will be forgiven them.
 
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FireLily

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I believe that the best way to understand each other is by communication so here it goes. I know that conservative Christians are stereotypically believe that those that aren't of the faith will go to hell is this true.

Yes, you're right about that. Many Conservatives think this way, but some (like myself) know that at the core the Bible teaches that God is the final judge of all things. Therefore we have no right to take on a Godship and say who is or is not going to Hell. Only God can judge you. Only God can save you. Only God is the final word. NOT man.
 
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Blackknight

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