• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Question

b.hopeful

Sharp as a razor, soft as a prayer
Jul 17, 2009
2,057
303
St.Louis metropolitan area
✟26,162.00
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Tim...to answer a recurring question you've asked....no, not every Christian believes this. You are welcome to ask the same questions on the unorthodox theology board or over at Whosoever Will, May Come. Both folders are full of Christians that have a different take and this matter can be fully discussed by all on the unorthodox theology board.
 
Upvote 0

TimMorgan

Newbie
Jun 30, 2009
41
0
✟22,651.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
The difference is that God does not charge us with the sin because of Christ's work in the cross. Remember that Christ died for our sins so that those that believe in Him would be saved. On the other hand, when an unbeliever sins that sin is still charged to him because he has not yet accepted the gift of salvation.

I will be delighted to continue this conversation with you. I certainly understand your position since I once had questions just like you.

Well that's not a very fair system. Once again if someone does good in their life shouldn't the gift be given to them anyways.
 
Upvote 0

TimMorgan

Newbie
Jun 30, 2009
41
0
✟22,651.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Hello Tim,

It can be difficult to deal with. Anytime we try to impose a fallen human standard of justice upon a perfect God we are going to run into frustrations. Back in the garden of Eden our ancestors made a regrettable choice. They sought to be like gods and decide good and evil for themselves. This separated us from divine righteousness and we've suffered as a race ever since. To this day we have grave difficulties with God's perfection and standards, proof that the curse still lies deep within us.

Take a look around. In this world of billions of people we all have sin in common. Every last one of us. There is no exception, no one holy man sitting on a desert island that never stumbled in deed or character. We have all fallen short of our original design and the earth along with us.

That you would express hesitancy to submit to God because of others who neglect him is somewhat natural in one sense. All of us have or had that impulse to some extent in our lives. Only some have been reborn and have been given new life in Christ who enables us to repair our relationship with God. This redemption is the most prized blessing in the world as it contains the key to eternal life and reconciliation with our Maker.

But as far as those who reject it, there is no great injustice. Ultimately, everyone gets what they want. Everyone in Christ wants nothing more than to escape the clutches of sin and become a new creation, serving God eternally. Everyone else...well, they don't want to be conformed to God and would rather live otherwise. The problem with that, however, is that life without God's grace is hell, literally. But again, make no mistake, everyon gets exactly what they want.

So while there is still breath in your chest I would sincerely ask you to examine these things. Nothing we believe actually affects truth and reality. Either I am right or I am wrong (and the same goes for you). Invest in a Bible and start reading for yourself. See whether the words are of man or of God.

I pray that the Lord allows you to discern the difference and that it leads you to everlasting life my friend.

Blessings...

I'm not saying that anyone is without sin but should we not strive to live a life free of sin. And I highly doubt that those who don't accept god actually want to go to hell. An the definition of hell is a little more than the absence of god there's the whole bit about burning forever in torment. I mean does anyone really deserve that.
 
Upvote 0

TimMorgan

Newbie
Jun 30, 2009
41
0
✟22,651.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I certainly hear what you are saying, it sounds kinda petty...I'll take it a step further and say "What was the big deal of Jesus going to the cross when He knew He was God and would be resurrected anyhow?"

The key to understanding has to do with the nature of holiness, and holiness is the attribute of God that is so often overlooked. Other aspects, such as love and grace and mercy and justice are really preferred ways to look at God, but some key Scriptures need to be looked at:

Rev 4:6 –Rev 4:11 NKJV
Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.
The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,

Who was and is and is to come!”
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
“You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



Isa 6:1 –Isa 6:5 NKJV
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”
And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
So I said:
“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”



The angels do not say "Love, love, love" or "mercy, mercy, mercy" or "justice, justice, justice" but "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY". That then has to be the starting ground in understanding what God does. Ourselves, we don't have much of a grasp of holiness while we do understand better the other attributes such as love or justice. And it's the nature of holiness that made the cross for Christ the unimaginable suffering; it's the nature of holiness that puts the unrepentant moral man into eternal punishment. It is a somewhat mysterious situation; attempting to define and clarify God is very limited by what we have to work with--ourselves--and it's not like examining real estate to buy a house or reviewing stats trying to guess which is the best football team-those things can be figured out with reason and logic..God is not like that, we come to Him as His children..



But in my mind that is not the perfect being someone who alienates himself from humanity by being so holy how could you relate to someone so different? How can you trust something you don't understand
 
Upvote 0

nitrox314

Sinner saved by Grace
Jun 23, 2008
20
4
USA
✟22,768.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But in my mind that is not the perfect being someone who alienates himself from humanity by being so holy how could you relate to someone so different? How can you trust something you don't understand

Jesus was sent to us. He knows what the flesh is like. You have to understand that we are naturally evil because of the sin that has been passed through Adam's seed. Because Adam sinned, it has been passed on through the generations. One sin is enough to make you unworthy of heaven. Nobody could live up to this. God loved us so much that he sent his Son to die in place of us. That is the extent of His Mercy. His son took upon him the sins of everyone. Everyone can go to heaven now as long as one accepts his sacrifice and accepts Jesus as their savior.

To answer an earlier question you posed about God or Shiva... One of the biggest reasons that I know Christ is the savior and that we worship the one true God is that the Jewish prophets had fortold of His coming for hundreds of years. They even rejected Him as they had predicted. To this day the Jew's still do not accept Jesus as their foretold messiah, even though He fulfilled the prophesies about the messiah. We believe the messiah of the Jews has already come and believe even in the old testament, much to the disappointment of many Jews.

I was worse than just an atheist I think. I was a pagan before, namely I worshipped trees as a "Druid". I was quite a lost soul. I even tried pulling my wife away from Christianity. I came to Christ though before I had fully hardened my heart. I was ripped apart, a torn rag doll that was meaningless. I can tell you that I searched far and wide and nothing even compares to Jesus Christ. He is the only savior and Son of the One True God. Never in my life have I been so blessed as I have since coming to know Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,813
6,435
On the bus to Heaven
✟223,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well that's not a very fair system. Once again if someone does good in their life shouldn't the gift be given to them anyways.

Hi Tim,

But what is good? How do you define good? How do you know that good is actually good?

Also, why would the sins of the believer not be counted against him/her be unfair?
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,109
114,207
✟1,379,756.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
I believe that the best way to understand each other is by communication so here it goes. I know that conservative Christians are stereotypically believe that those that aren't of the faith will go to hell is this true.

would you be so kind as to explain "I know that conservative Christians are stereotypically"?

Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

TimMorgan

Newbie
Jun 30, 2009
41
0
✟22,651.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
would you be so kind as to explain "I know that conservative Christians are stereotypically"?

Thank you.


If I offended you I truly from the bottom of my heart apologize. By that I meant that the image of them and the majority of them I met believe that.
 
Upvote 0

TimMorgan

Newbie
Jun 30, 2009
41
0
✟22,651.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Hi Tim,

But what is good? How do you define good? How do you know that good is actually good?

Also, why would the sins of the believer not be counted against him/her be unfair?


A very Interesting question. By good I mean people who strive to make the world a better place don't judge unless it is constructive and think of others before themselves. How do I know that that is good? let's call it faith.

I think that god should judge all sins the same no matter who commits them how could not doing that be considered fair.
 
Upvote 0

JediMobius

The Guy with the Face
Jan 12, 2006
1,592
112
41
Beer City, Michigan
✟25,618.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Do you mean to say that all you have to do to get into heaven is accept Jesus christ as your savior?!?

Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I would caution that this verse doesn't mean one is saved immediately, but by living out his or her life in faith. The free gift of salvation is simple, but it's not easy. Believing in Christ is more than just knowledge or a state of mind. (red words are Jesus's words)

Joh 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Rom 2:6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 12:25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

CruciFixed

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2008
4,780
343
Akron, Ohio
✟6,816.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So Adam and eve "slapped god in the face" why is god punishing us for the sins of our ancestors isn't that childish. And why were we punished for being tricked and manipulated by Satan an obviously more cunning creature An isn't it just downright cruel to send men who did what he asked to hell noah moses etc. God is sounding meaner and meaner. I'm not meaning to be rude and i'm not trying to come on to strong if I am i'm sorry.


Satan will get his just reward. Satan was cursed but God didn't allow the "focus the blame on someone else" thing. He didn't let Adam and Eve get by with breaking his rules. Both Adam and Eve placed the blame on others but did not accept their deeds. A lot of modern humans do that as well. Look at parents. "Well Cookie Monster made my son fat so I have to accept no fault of my own." or "My son misbehaves in school so its the teacher's fault. I need not accept fault." That's what Adam and Eve did...pointed fingers, tried to accept no fault, and even placed blame on God. "Well you gave me the woman." It is all very sad if you watch the story unfold.

You didn't answer my question

Does God, Creator of all things deserve hell or punishment?

Do you think sin stopped with Adam and Eve? Adam and Eve fell from grace and passed that on to their children and their children passed it to us. The first murder occurred with Adam and Eve's eldest son...Cain. So sin didn't just END with Adam and Eve God's not "blaming us". We do it everyday. You commit at least one sin a day and until you recognize sin for what it is you will not be able to recognize God's grace.

You don't understand good because you don't understand God. There is no work you can do today to pay off the sin of yesterday. God took humiliation and beatings for the sin you'll commit tomorrow. He took the cross for the sins you've already committed even in childhood. He knew you before you decided upon atheism. He knew you'd choose the world over Him. We all, you, your mom, your best friend, your cousin, my step son, my nephew, my husband and my father in law we ALL deserve Hell. The One who does not deserve Hell is God. He came down as Jesus lived 33 years on Earth, descended into Hell.....The One who created it all spent time in Hell that He did not deserve at all because He is perfect and sinless. Still He went to hell to preach to the souls....
There is no person on Earth today who is without sin. There's not one man who can say he has never sinned in his life. The second he says that he sins because that's a lie.

Because of our sin which has no $ sign or deed attached to it we DESERVE hell and death. Christ paid something for our sins that you cannot give money, deeds or kind acts for. Christ gave Himself. Before Christ's actions on the cross everyone went to Hell. It wasn't about righteousness. Moses couldn't ask for anything but death because Heaven was not an option. I don't think you understand. BEFORE Jesus' deed on the cross......there was no Heaven for humans. Heaven was reserved for the angels and God not for Moses, Noah, Abraham, Job, and all of the righteous men of the Bible. THAT is what I am trying to say. If they did not get Heaven for their good deeds and righteous acts what makes you think fireman bob who doesn't even believe in the Creator of the whole universe deserves more than what the men of the Bible deserve?

The Jews, for example, dont' believe Heaven is even attainable for humans. How come you don't wish to go into their section and say "Hey God doesn't send anyone to Heaven according to your beliefs I think that's unfair."

On top of my previous question would you like it if I went into your home and started slandering your father and calling him names, accusing him of things I know little to nothing about?

If you wouldn't then you should really be mindful how you speak of MY Father.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
38,813
6,435
On the bus to Heaven
✟223,134.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A very Interesting question. By good I mean people who strive to make the world a better place don't judge unless it is constructive and think of others before themselves. How do I know that that is good? let's call it faith.

Faith sounds like a great answer. however, even faith has to based on something. To the Christian that faith is based on God. God revealed himself in scripture. The scriptures reveal God's standard for goodness. With that standard He also revealed that men are naturally wicked. What that means is that man, without the grace of God, can not not sin. Even the outstanding people that have lived have been sinners. We all are. I will be happy to post the scriptures relevant to this if you wish.

I think that god should judge all sins the same no matter who commits them how could not doing that be considered fair.

God does indeed judge all the sins the same without recourse to whom committed them. The only difference is that the sins of the true believer are imputed to Christ's account because of His work on the cross and the sins of the unbeliever are imputed to himself (if the unbeliever becomes a believer then his account is cleared). Think of it as kind of buying life insurance. Those that purchased it are covered while those that did not are not. The believer, though, will still be judged for their deeds in heaven but only suffer loss of reward versus loosing heaven itself. That is the free gift of salvation.

Also, please remember that no one on earth can judge another person's heart so you can name all of the good people that you believe were good and I could not tell you if they were saved or not because I do not know their heart. Not my job.:)
 
Upvote 0

nitrox314

Sinner saved by Grace
Jun 23, 2008
20
4
USA
✟22,768.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
By looking at the facts and finding the most logical answer.

If you look at the facts and find the most logical answer, then everything on this earth points to a creator. If you argue otherwise, you are not being logical, just extremely narrowminded. Creatures, the sky, the rotation of the earth and planets around the sun, the sciences, the fact that the bible is historically and archaeologically accurate. God is undeniable, except to those who do not wish to see Him there.

I have seen scientific debates on the origin of the universe. Many end up saying "Yeah, it looks like there must be a creator, but that's impossible!" You make yourself unable to see God in anything. When you deny God for all your life, God denies you.
 
Upvote 0

MrJim

Legend 3/17/05
Mar 17, 2005
16,491
1,369
FEMA Region III
✟59,025.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But in my mind that is not the perfect being someone who alienates himself from humanity by being so holy how could you relate to someone so different? How can you trust something you don't understand

There is the a chunk of the prob~"...in my mind..." ; if you continually choose to try to understand things in your own mind and own understanding, you will not even begin to touch on the things of God. God is not an specimen to be examined under the microscope.

How can I trust something I don't understand? I don't even understand how this computer works but I trust it will work when I turn it on; in a lot of ways I never understood my dad but I trusted him...there are lots of things I don't understand but trust.
 
Upvote 0

peadar1987

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2009
1,009
57
I'm a Dub, but I live in Scotland now
✟1,446.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
If you look at the facts and find the most logical answer, then everything on this earth points to a creator. If you argue otherwise, you are not being logical, just extremely narrowminded. Creatures, the sky, the rotation of the earth and planets around the sun, the sciences, the fact that the bible is historically and archaeologically accurate. God is undeniable, except to those who do not wish to see Him there.

I have seen scientific debates on the origin of the universe. Many end up saying "Yeah, it looks like there must be a creator, but that's impossible!" You make yourself unable to see God in anything. When you deny God for all your life, God denies you.

All I can say to this is that you are clearly not a scientist.
 
Upvote 0