Question......

[BigBadWlf]

There is something in the gospels about not esteeming one person above another, based on social status. I don't have the chapter nor verse, but it's there, maybe even in more than one. But by prejudice he's speaking racial stuff, probably. So I think it's just a trap of words.

Prejudice based on skin color is no different from prejudice based on orientation

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Prejudice based on skin color is no different from prejudice based on orientation

What do you mean by prejudice?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

noticing that not everyone is the same shade of grey can result in being called prejudice, so it is often thrown around loosely while still having a very serious implication.

 

[jamielindas]

He wasn't silent. Jesus certainly spoke against fornication. Why do some people think they are exempt from this teaching?

You seem to have taken a very specific definition of fornication. Can you confirm that this was the intent of the verses you're referring to?

 

[jamielindas]

I currently live in the bay area, so I can honestly say that I don't feel hated or unloved by my neighbors here, but they certainly aren't a heavily fundamentalist bunch. I feel very more discrimination for being an atheist, than for being gay.
However, from participating in this forum and living in a more religious area of california in my youth, I cannot count the number of times I have been told, read or seen that gays
-are going to hell
-are an abomination
-are full of sin
-can't really love anyone
-are possessed by the devil or a demon
-have a choice whom they are attracted to
-can change if they listen to god
-are a cause of suffering
-are the cause of natural disasters (I actually like this one, it's like a super power!)
-should burn in hell
-should suffer from HIV/AIDS
-are responsible for HIV/AIDS
-are responsible for the sins of the modern world
the list goes on...
I would say the vast majority comes from religious people and the majority of those are christians.
Where is the christian love? How are we to feel loved by our christian neighbors if they feel this way about us?

 

[Leah]

I currently live in the bay area, so I can honestly say that I don't feel hated or unloved by my neighbors here, but they certainly aren't a heavily fundamentalist bunch. I feel very more discrimination for being an atheist, than for being gay.
However, from participating in this forum and living in a more religious area of california in my youth, I cannot count the number of times I have been told, read or seen that gays
-are going to hell
-are an abomination
-are full of sin
-can't really love anyone
-are possessed by the devil or a demon
-have a choice whom they are attracted to
-can change if they listen to god
-are a cause of suffering
-are the cause of natural disasters (I actually like this one, it's like a super power!)
-should burn in hell
-should suffer from HIV/AIDS
-are responsible for HIV/AIDS
-are responsible for the sins of the modern world
the list goes on...
I would say the vast majority comes from religious people and the majority of those are christians.
Where is the christian love? How are we to feel loved by our christian neighbors if they feel this way about us?

That's probably because those christians you've mentioned who've said those things don't understand what being salt means and what the purpose is in doing what christians do and why, according to God's will.

See, there's just something about walking in the will of God. Its like you have sense and don't have the tendency to speak from yourself or compare others to yourself. Some know some things about what the bible says, but lack the correct understanding to be able to wisely apply that knowledge in their lives to get results in such a way that people see your good works and give God glory becuase of it.

I know all too well that there is severe prejudice against gays (being the fact that I used to be that way). But I wonder if those who have this prejudice are the same way with their own sin.........

 

[Secundulus]

You seem to have taken a very specific definition of fornication. Can you confirm that this was the intent of the verses you're referring to?

Fornication refers to sex outside of marriage with anyone and does not discriminate between the heterosexual and homosexual. Sometimes, due to its meaning, the word is used to refer to unfaithfulness to God since in the OT the Jews are called the wife of God and in the NT the Christians are called the bride of Christ. However, in the NT it most often refers to any sex with anyone outside of marriage.

for•ni•ca•tion \ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən\
14 : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftn4

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftnref4Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary., Includes Index., Eleventh ed. (Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).

88.271 πορνεύω; ἐκπορνεύω; πορνεία, ας : to engage in sexual immorality of any kind, often with the implication of prostitution—‘to engage in illicit sex, to commit fornication, sexual immorality, fornication, prostitution.’
πορνεύω: ὁ δὲ πορνεύων εἰς τὸ ἴδιον σῶμα
ἁμαρτάνει ‘the person who commits immorality sins against his own body’ 1 Cor 6.18.
ἐκπορνεύω: ὡς Σόδομα καὶ Γόμορρα … ἐκπορνεύσασαι ‘they committed sexual immorality … like Sodom and Gomorrah’ Jd 7.
πορνεία: τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας ‘this is God’s will (for you; he wants you) to be consecrated to him and to abstain from sexual immorality’ 1 Th 4.3. In some NT contexts πορνεία may refer specifically to incest.​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftn3

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftnref3Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible societies, 1996, c1989), 1:770.






Every instance of fornication in the NT
"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:32, KJV)

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" (Matthew 15:19, KJV)

"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." (Matthew 19:9, KJV)

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," (Mark 7:21, KJV)

"Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." (John 8:41, KJV)

"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20, KJV)

"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:29, KJV)

"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." (Acts 21:25, KJV)

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," (Romans 1:29, KJV)

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife." (1 Corinthians 5:1, KJV)

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:" (1 Corinthians 5:9, KJV)

"Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world." (1 Corinthians 5:10, KJV)

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11, KJV)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," (1 Corinthians 6:9, KJV)

"Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body." (1 Corinthians 6:13, KJV)

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body." (1 Corinthians 6:18, KJV)

"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Corinthians 7:2, KJV)

"Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand." (1 Corinthians 10:8, KJV)

"And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:21, KJV)

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness," (Galatians 5:19, KJV)

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;" (Ephesians 5:3, KJV)

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" (Colossians 3:5, KJV)

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:" (1 Thessalonians 4:3, KJV)

"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright." (Hebrews 12:16, KJV)

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 7, KJV)

"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." (Revelation 2:14, KJV)

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." (Revelation 2:20, KJV)

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." (Revelation 2:21, KJV)

"Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Revelation 9:21, KJV)

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Revelation 14:8, KJV)

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Revelation 17:2, KJV)

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:" (Revelation 17:4, KJV)

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." (Revelation 18:3, KJV)

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning," (Revelation 18:9, KJV)

"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." (Revelation 19:2, KJV)

 

[Secundulus]

The Greeks and Romans were anti-gay?

Where exactly did you find this “fact”?

It's in the history books. In Rome, a passive homosexual citizen could lose his citizenship. In Greece, pederasty was accepted but adult homosexuality was not. The adult male passive partner in Greece was also looked upon with contempt.

These facts of history may be inconvenient, but that is how it was.

This is not meant to insult anyone, but this is Roman 1st Century Poetry by Juvenal which illustrates the Roman attitude.

"One can't rely on men's faces: every street overflows with
Austere-visaged perverts. How can you reprove immorality,
most notorious man-hole among the Socratic pansy-boys?
Your hairy limbs and the stiff bristles on your arms
promise a stern soul, but the doctor has to mock you
as he cuts the swollen piles from your depilated anus."
(Satire 2.8-13)

 

[jamielindas]

Fornication refers to sex outside of marriage with anyone and does not discriminate between the heterosexual and homosexual. Sometimes, due to its meaning, the word is used to refer to unfaithfulness to God since in the OT the Jews are called the wife of God and in the NT the Christians are called the bride of Christ. However, in the NT it most often refers to any sex with anyone outside of marriage.

for•ni•ca•tion \ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən\
14 : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftn4

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftnref4Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary., Includes Index., Eleventh ed. (Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).

88.271 πορνεύω; ἐκπορνεύω; πορνεία, ας : to engage in sexual immorality of any kind, often with the implication of prostitution—‘to engage in illicit sex, to commit fornication, sexual immorality, fornication, prostitution.’
πορνεύω: ὁ δὲ πορνεύων εἰς τὸ ἴδιον σῶμα
ἁμαρτάνει ‘the person who commits immorality sins against his own body’ 1 Cor 6.18.
ἐκπορνεύω: ὡς Σόδομα καὶ Γόμορρα … ἐκπορνεύσασαι ‘they committed sexual immorality … like Sodom and Gomorrah’ Jd 7.
πορνεία: τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας ‘this is God’s will (for you; he wants you) to be consecrated to him and to abstain from sexual immorality’ 1 Th 4.3. In some NT contexts πορνεία may refer specifically to incest.​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftn3

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46022374#_ftnref3Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible societies, 1996, c1989), 1:770.






Every instance of fornication in the NT
"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:32, KJV)

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" (Matthew 15:19, KJV)

"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." (Matthew 19:9, KJV)

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," (Mark 7:21, KJV)

"Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." (John 8:41, KJV)

"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20, KJV)

"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:29, KJV)

"As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." (Acts 21:25, KJV)

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," (Romans 1:29, KJV)

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife." (1 Corinthians 5:1, KJV)

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:" (1 Corinthians 5:9, KJV)

"Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world." (1 Corinthians 5:10, KJV)

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11, KJV)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," (1 Corinthians 6:9, KJV)

"Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body." (1 Corinthians 6:13, KJV)

"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body." (1 Corinthians 6:18, KJV)

"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Corinthians 7:2, KJV)

"Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand." (1 Corinthians 10:8, KJV)

"And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:21, KJV)

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness," (Galatians 5:19, KJV)

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;" (Ephesians 5:3, KJV)

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" (Colossians 3:5, KJV)

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:" (1 Thessalonians 4:3, KJV)

"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright." (Hebrews 12:16, KJV)

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 7, KJV)

"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." (Revelation 2:14, KJV)

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." (Revelation 2:20, KJV)

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." (Revelation 2:21, KJV)

"Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Revelation 9:21, KJV)

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Revelation 14:8, KJV)

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Revelation 17:2, KJV)

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:" (Revelation 17:4, KJV)

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." (Revelation 18:3, KJV)

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning," (Revelation 18:9, KJV)

"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." (Revelation 19:2, KJV)

My point was that fornication applies to more than just homosexuality. Fornication is not a synonym for homosexuality in the bible.

How does one expect homosexuals to NOT fornicate if they are NOT allowed to be married? I get that the bible forbids gay fornication, but which one of those is against gay marriage so we don't have to fornicate in your eyes?

 

[jamielindas]

That's probably because those christians you've mentioned who've said those things don't understand what being salt means and what the purpose is in doing what christians do and why, according to God's will.

See, there's just something about walking in the will of God. Its like you have sense and don't have the tendency to speak from yourself or compare others to yourself. Some know some things about what the bible says, but lack the correct understanding to be able to wisely apply that knowledge in their lives to get results in such a way that people see your good works and give God glory becuase of it.

I know all too well that there is severe prejudice against gays (being the fact that I used to be that way). But I wonder if those who have this prejudice are the same way with their own sin.........

I've found that the vast majority of those people believe they do have true faith and are doing the will of god.

 

[Secundulus]

My point was that fornication applies to more than just homosexuality. Fornication is not a synonym for homosexuality in the bible.

I have made the same point several times.

How does one expect homosexuals to NOT fornicate if they are NOT allowed to be married? I get that the bible forbids gay fornication, but which one of those is against gay marriage so we don't have to fornicate in your eyes?

There is no idea anywhere in the scriptures that could be taken to support this.

The only way one can come up with a religious justification is to do like some denominations and declare they are doing a new thing.

 

[jamielindas]

I have made the same point several times.


There is no idea anywhere in the scriptures that could be taken to support this.

The only way one can come up with a religious justification is to do like some denominations and declare they are doing a new thing.

So which one of those scriptures actually forbids gay marriage?
I get that fornication, of both homosexual and heterosexual nature, are wrong in the bible. Where is the gay marriage part? I'll preemptively object to evidence from absence because I think that could work in either of our favors.

 

[Secundulus]

So which one of those scriptures actually forbids gay marriage?
I get that fornication, of both homosexual and heterosexual nature, are wrong in the bible. Where is the gay marriage part? I'll preemptively object to evidence from absence because I think that could work in either of our favors.

It doesn't address it because the idea did not exist in anyone's mind.

That's a rather simplistic way to interpret scripture anyway. "That which is not explicitly prohibited is allowed?"

Marriage is addressed throughout the Bible and it is never in the context you seek.

Just curious since you do not have a faith icon. Are you a Christian? If not, why do you care what we think?

 

[jamielindas]

It doesn't address it because the idea did not exist in anyone's mind.

That's a rather simplistic way to interpret scripture anyway. "That which is not explicitly prohibited is allowed?"

Marriage is addressed throughout the Bible and it is never in the context you seek.

Just curious since you do not have a faith icon. Are you a Christian? If not, why do you care what we think?

I don't think evidence from absence is appropriate, that's why I preemptively said it could work in either of our favors. The point is that the bible clearly is a big yes on the marriage and commitment thing. You're right, gay marriage and gay love are always going to be the minority and not always accounted for in text like the bible. It does exist, it did exist, even if people choose not to acknowledge it.

I am not a christian. However, I'm VERY concerned about what christians think because there seems to be growing christian sentiment in our government. I want to to be free to live my life in America. I'd like to get married some day and I'd like to adopt children one day. It seems many christians don't want me to do this and I want to understand why. Then I hope to convince them that it is my right in this country to do so and though they may not like me or like it, the law still says I can.

I'm tried and saddened by all the hate I see pointed at the GLBT community and I want to do something to help. I suppose this kind of conversation is kind of a grass roots way education myself and others.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I commend Big Bad wlf and JamieLindas for posts # 2 and #25 respectively which give a litany of a good number of the harm which certain "Christians" inflict on LGBTs.

I would add things like seeking to have LGBT parents denied custody of their children; seeking to deny them employment; subjecting them to various prejudices and cruel remarks, etc. but the work of the Religious Right organizations is primarily concerned with subjecting LGBTs to these types of harms.

I have no problem with "Christians" being one myself but until Christians who do not belive in hating and harming their LGBT brothers and sisters speak up they concede the religious right the title of Christians because of how the RRs misuse it. When someone disagrees with them they wail, "YOU ARE ATTACKING US AS CHRISTIANS!" when in fact the statement is a bearing of false witness. We disagree with their politics, not their religion.

I suggest you read Tony Campolo's 20 Hot Potatos Christians are Afraid to Touch one of which is this very one. You can get it from www.tonycampolo.org

take for instance the issue of health insurance coverage. Regardless of how one views homosexuality, as sin or a positive capacity to love, health care should be a basic human right. Our system is employment-based. If a heterosexual married Christian can put its spouse on its insurance an LGBT coworker should be able to put its partner/spouse on it as well. It's simple fairness. Yet the religious right not only opposes this, they conduct boycotts of companies which permit it. There is no reason to do this other than pure unadulterated hatred and that's all there is to it.

 

[Texas Lynn]

It's in the history books. In Rome, a passive homosexual citizen could lose his citizenship. In Greece, pederasty was accepted but adult homosexuality was not. The adult male passive partner in Greece was also looked upon with contempt.

These facts of history may be inconvenient, but that is how it was.

This is not meant to insult anyone, but this is Roman 1st Century Poetry by Juvenal which illustrates the Roman attitude.

"One can't rely on men's faces: every street overflows with
Austere-visaged perverts. How can you reprove immorality,
most notorious man-hole among the Socratic pansy-boys?
Your hairy limbs and the stiff bristles on your arms
promise a stern soul, but the doctor has to mock you
as he cuts the swollen piles from your depilated anus."
(Satire 2.8-13)

As a cultutral artifact, that's great, and it explains the mistaken concepts some had then and have now of homosexuality. It was assumed all were heterosexual; concepts of sexual orientation did not exist. Passive men were disdained; maile-on-male rape was common as an act of dominance. Given the culture it is quite likely the soldiers who crucified Jesus Christ raped him as well. However the dominant male was never stigmatized. The fact that mutual loving among same gender partners was not considered then suggests that the idea scripture prohibits such is at best poorly thought out. Many-perhaps most, not including slaves, were male prostitutes. Leviticus' passages which are the favorites of the homophobes most likely refer to the male prostitutes. Paul's inclusion of "homosexuals" as modern translations say also most likely referred to social outcast, disdained passive male prostitutes, not unlike the hapless fellow in Juvenal's doggerel.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Although any sex outside of marriage would obviously include homosexual sex, and is fornication,
God expressly said it is an abomination for men to "lay down with" men as they would with women.
PERIOD.

So, marriage is not even in the equation as the act itself is abominable
in the sight of God and is expressly forbidden period.

So which one of those scriptures actually forbids gay marriage?
I get that fornication, of both homosexual and heterosexual nature, are wrong in the bible. Where is the gay marriage part? I'll preemptively object to evidence from absence because I think that could work in either of our favors.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Adding to the Word of God is dangerous territory, and what is attempting to be added here, causes me to fear for you. If I were you, for your own soul's sake, I would dial that back as you are treading on a dangerous path before the Lord with this little addition of yours.

I can assure you that it is not likely Jesus was raped. Remember who He is and that His life was not taken from Him, He laid down His life.
Nothing occurred to Him that He didn't allow, but one thing we know He wouldn't have allowed is that defilement. As a matter of proof that the Lord was in control of what was allowed to occur to Him and what wasn't: one of the things written in Prophecy regarding His crucifixion is that His bones would not be broken. It was customary to break the legs of the crucified to speed up their deaths. The Passover Sabbath was soon to begin, and there could be no one still dying on the crosses when the Passover Sabbath began, so the other men beside Jesus had their legs broken to speed up their deaths, but when they came up to the cross of Christ, they saw He had already given up the ghost and they DID NOT break his legs.

As a cultutral artifact, that's great, and it explains the mistaken concepts some had then and have now of homosexuality. It was assumed all were heterosexual; concepts of sexual orientation did not exist. Passive men were disdained; maile-on-male rape was common as an act of dominance. Given the culture it is quite likely the soldiers who crucified Jesus Christ raped him as well. However the dominant male was never stigmatized. The fact that mutual loving among same gender partners was not considered then suggests that the idea scripture prohibits such is at best poorly thought out. Many-perhaps most, not including slaves, were male prostitutes. Leviticus' passages which are the favorites of the homophobes most likely refer to the male prostitutes. Paul's inclusion of "homosexuals" as modern translations say also most likely referred to social outcast, disdained passive male prostitutes, not unlike the hapless fellow in Juvenal's doggerel.

 

[Texas Lynn]

God expressly said it is an abomination for men to "lay down with" men as they would with women.

That was the priestly authors of the Old Testament, not God.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Adding to the Word of God is dangerous territory, and what is attempting to be added here, causes me to fear for you. If I were you, for your own soul's sake, I would dial that back as you are treading on a dangerous path before the Lord with this little addition of yours.

It's not an addition to scripture.