Question

[Deb7777]

As some of you might know, I've been waiting to see what CF decides on distinguishing the faith affliation on Mods/ Supervisors in the Congregation section so people will know who represents what faith and not presume its the faith of the congregational sub- forum that they moderate. I was going through the rules in more depth and I asked myself as a Catholic can I support this statement that Erwin has posted after the creed. (*The word "catholic" (literally, "universal") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination or institution.)

(**This can be interpreted to mean that baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or a regenerating ordinance.) I can see where a non- Catholic would want to give their twist to the creed but as a Catholic can I agree for the sake of being able to post here. I especially don't like the part about baptism because of the importance Catholics and the Creed put on the statement (" I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins".) I think Erwin should not give his twist and let the creed speak for itself because now I feel by not saying anything I'm adding to the confusion and wrong intrepretion to the creed. I think the Mod/ Supervisor situation has a chance to be cleared up but I don't know if I can resolve the extra intrepretation to the Catholic Creed for the sake of posting on a messageboard. I'll be interested to hear your take on this and of course, I want this to be a discussion that does not get out of hand but the Catholic family sharing their thoughts here, thank you. I need to run but I will read your answers later.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Yes because it leaves open the Catholic interpretation and a Protestant one.

 

[gtsecc]

Would Erwin be kicked out of an Eccumenical council for that view?
Yes.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

As some of you might know, I've been waiting to see what CF decides on distinguishing the faith affliation on Mods/ Supervisors in the Congregation section so people will know who represents what faith and not presume its the faith of the congregational sub- forum that they moderate. I was going through the rules in more depth and I asked myself as a Catholic can I support thisstatement that Erwin has posted after the creed. (*The word "catholic" (literally, "universal") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination or institution.)

(**This can be interpreted to mean that baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or a regenerating ordinance.) I can see where a non- Catholic would want to give their twist to the creed but as a Catholic can I agree for the sake of being able to post here. I especially don't like the part about baptism because of the importance Catholics and the Creed put on the statement (" I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins".) I think Erwin should not give his twist and let the creed speak for itself because now I feel by not saying anything I'm adding to the confusion and wrong intrepretion to the creed. I think the Mod/ Supervisor situation has a chance to be cleared up but I don't know if I can resolve the extra intrepretation to the Catholic Creed for the sake of posting on a messageboard. I'll be interested to hear your take on this and of course, I want this to be a discussion that does not get out of hand but the Catholic family sharing their thoughts here, thank you. I need to run but I will read your answers later.

The key phrase that allows me to affirm that statement is "not necessarily". (I have highlighted your text). This does not preclude that it is the actual Catholic Church. The way I understant it, It simply allows those who are not Catholcs to affirm it. However, I agree the Creed should stand on its own, unmodified by comments

Grace and blessings to you.

 

[Deb7777]

I was thinking this could be very easily solved that nobody is compromising their belief if Erwin would put a disclaimer before his statements on the Creed as such: * Disclaimer, Protestant theology believe Catholic means, etc. and baptism means etc. instead of making a blank statement on the Creed that proposes all agree with that intrepretation because I don't agree with those statements and would like it to be more clear this is protestant theology and not Catholic theology on beliefs on the Creed. That would work for me to see protestant behind a blank statement that I cannot agree with in intrepretating a Catholic Creed used by Catholics every Sunday to define who we are.

 

[Deb7777]

Yes because it leaves open the Catholic interpretation and a Protestant one.

Hi Jeffrey, How does the reader know those additions to the Creed represent Protestant Theology? You get many types of readers, seekers, atheists, lapse Catholics, non-Christians,what if they think all Christendom agrees with those personal interpretations after the Creed. Those who gave us the Creed had a Church in mind and I don't think they were thinking of including those outside of their group and theology as being the One Holy Catholic Church. We do believe those outside can be imperfectly join to Mother Church through circumstances but separate brethen are making us the Roman Catholic Church and not thee Catholic Church which the Creed had in mind. I think we would all be disappointed and outrage if our leaders let the Creed be used to the extent we are not the Catholic Church in the creed but the Roman Catholic Church, one of the many Churches to make up the true Catholic church. Your presuming people will know those statements represent protestants but I do not presume that unless Erwin will put a disclaimer of some sorts these view points are from the protestant perspective because I do not agree with them and the Catholic Church will not agree we are not the One true Church spoken of in the Creed with the possibility of others being imperfectly joined. The statement on baptism is completely against Catholic Theology so I think Erwin should make it clear who these statements represent. I don't have a problem with putting the protestant viewpoint out there as long as people know the source and do not presume all Christiandom agrees with those statements, then we really did nothing to help foster the truth by letting people know the differences.

 

[RoseofLima]

I don't know- follow your conscience....

I personally have bigger battles to wage. I come here to relax.

 

[D'Ann]

Any Christian can visit GT and realize that this site is a Protestant site. We are here and have the OBOB as our Catholic safe harbor due to Erwin's mercy and compassion. I read the Nicene Creed here on CF as Jeff stated as well.

As far as non-Catholic mods/spvsrs moding here in the OBOB... that has not happened and as far as I know it will not be happening, otherwise, I'll be leaving CF as well. Needless to say, Deb, I think you have asked good questions and at the same time, you may be looking at it from a different angle than it was meant to be looked at.

Your work is awesome in GT and I'm grateful to you for your ministry here.

God bless,

Debbie

 

[Deb7777]

Any Christian can visit GT and realize that this site is a Protestant site. We are here and have the OBOB as our Catholic safe harbor due to Erwin's mercy and compassion. I read the Nicene Creed here on CF as Jeff stated as well.

As far as non-Catholic mods/spvsrs moding here in the OBOB... that has not happened and as far as I know it will not be happening, otherwise, I'll be leaving CF as well. Needless to say, Deb, I think you have asked good questions and at the same time, you may be looking at it from a different angle than it was meant to be looked at.

Your work is awesome in GT and I'm grateful to you for your ministry here.

God bless,

Debbie

Hi Deb, the fact people are listed as Mods/ Supervisors here will make some believe they are Catholics unless they are required to use their faith icon instead of a generic cross. So, in that area I just want people to know the Mods/ Supervisors are not all Catholics when seeing them on other forums with different beliefs. When I first came to this forum I believed all Mods were Catholic, it is a Catholic sub-forum. People might quickly figure out this site is run by a non- denominational CEO but they might not know Catholic Theology from Protestant Theology so if this site wants to add their personal interpretation to the Creed let people know this represents Protestant Theology and not all of Christendom because it does not represent Catholic Theology.

 

[ps139]

As some of you might know, I've been waiting to see what CF decides on distinguishing the faith affliation on Mods/ Supervisors in the Congregation section so people will know who represents what faith and not presume its the faith of the congregational sub- forum that they moderate. I was going through the rules in more depth and I asked myself as a Catholic can I support this statement that Erwin has posted after the creed. (*The word "catholic" (literally, "universal") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination or institution.)

(**This can be interpreted to mean that baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or a regenerating ordinance.) I can see where a non- Catholic would want to give their twist to the creed but as a Catholic can I agree for the sake of being able to post here. I especially don't like the part about baptism because of the importance Catholics and the Creed put on the statement (" I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins".) I think Erwin should not give his twist and let the creed speak for itself because now I feel by not saying anything I'm adding to the confusion and wrong intrepretion to the creed. I think the Mod/ Supervisor situation has a chance to be cleared up but I don't know if I can resolve the extra intrepretation to the Catholic Creed for the sake of posting on a messageboard. I'll be interested to hear your take on this and of course, I want this to be a discussion that does not get out of hand but the Catholic family sharing their thoughts here, thank you. I need to run but I will read your answers later.

hi Deb, I understand your concerns about this. But think of the alternative, if to be considered a Christian here (i.e. Nicene abiding), you had to believe that baptism was a real sacrament, and that "the Church" was Catholic. Almost all of Protestantism would be alienated, and how would it be able to try and "unite Christians." ?

I think the asterisk after "Catholic" is thrown in there because some Protestants will flip by the mere mention of 'Catholic.' So, thay may be there to assuage their fears that this site is run by secret Vatican spies ... we are all over the place, muahahahahah!

With the baptism thing, yeah, that is stretching it... a LOT. Early Church writings are explicit that baptism has always been viewed as much more than a mere "symbol." Until the anti-liturgical movements of the last 500 years, everyone knew there was something to baptism.

But, again, how ecumenical could this place hope to be if half of Protestantism was not allowed to post in the Christian section?

So, I think the good in allowing as many Christian churches here outweighs the bad of an extremely liberal interpretation of a few lines in the Creed.

 

[Deb7777]

hi Deb, I understand your concerns about this. But think of the alternative, if to be considered a Christian here (i.e. Nicene abiding), you had to believe that baptism was a real sacrament, and that "the Church" was Catholic. Almost all of Protestantism would be alienated, and how would it be able to try and "unite Christians." ?

I think the asterisk after "Catholic" is thrown in there because some Protestants will flip by the mere mention of 'Catholic.' So, thay may be there to assuage their fears that this site is run by secret Vatican spies ... we are all over the place, muahahahahah!

With the baptism thing, yeah, that is stretching it... a LOT. Early Church writings are explicit that baptism has always been viewed as much more than a mere "symbol." Until the anti-liturgical movements of the last 500 years, everyone knew there was something to baptism.

But, again, how ecumenical could this place hope to be if half of Protestantism was not allowed to post in the Christian section?

So, I think the good in allowing as many Christian churches here outweighs the bad of an extremely liberal interpretation of a few lines in the Creed.

Hi Ps139, I completely agree, Erwin had to enter a protestant interpretation to the Creed for protestants to be able to accept it. All I ask is make it clear to all readers, these personal interpretations represent protestant Theology and not all Christendom. Then nobody has to compromise their truths. True Unity should be crystal clear where we all agree and those additions to the Creed do not represent agreement which some might take as universally held beliefs for all Christians. We can't presume the non- Christians or lapse- Catholics will learn correct theology on CF. Lets educate people from the beginning when coming to this site, these beliefs added to the Creed when first read by a newcomer is taken from Protestant Theology. I like this site too but I don't want people to think that interpretation of the Creed is the correct one because of its addition and nobody seems to disagree with it, giving it more weight. A small disclaimer, "In protestant Theology, Catholic, etc. baptism etc., means etc. would clear up the Authority behind the statement. People should know who is making this Theological Statement and viewpoint.

 

[ps139]

From the perspective of someone who's been on staff 2 years: The Catholic staff have much bigger battles to fight. That is the honest truth. Your point is valid, but there are greater dangers and threats to Catholics here than that, and they are constantly fighting them.

 

[Deb7777]

From the perspective of someone who's been on staff 2 years: The Catholic staff have much bigger battles to fight. That is the honest truth. Your point is valid, but there are greater dangers and threats to Catholics here than that, and they are constantly fighting them.

Hi ps139, if this is true what you do is the Catholic staff should be open and share with the community here in OBOB so you have an united front. Catholics are supporting this site, this site benefits from an active Catholic community. Without Catholics, this site would definitely lose its interest to many who like to attack the faith in Gt. If Catholics start to feel uneasy here, its just a matter of time, someone else comes along to try the same attempt as Erwin in starting a Forum for many faiths to share in but perhaps where Catholics will feel more comfortable. Its to Erwins benefit to try to keep the Catholic Community here feeling comfortable in sharing the Catholic faith, from site supporters to volunteers, to keeping staff running the show which does have many Catholic volunteers, if the Apostolic Churches feel compromised in anyway this site will lose alot by their departure. You get what you stand up for, that is why I'm sharing my concerns with this Catholic Family in saying as a Catholic I cannot silently support personal additions to the Creed, put a disclaimer these personal interpretations represent Protestant Theology and make it clear what faith MOds/ Supervisors listed in OBOB represent by requiring all to show their faith icon, so when people see them in other forums they will not be confused, mistakening them for Catholic. Everybody should asked themselves when something bothers them, can I compromise those things that bother me for the sake of being able to post here. I cannot so I cannot participate on this forum unless there is a change in making clear the additions on the Catholic Creed and making sure people know the Faith of Mods/ Supervisors listed in OBOB. I don't know what your concerns are that you feel threatens this Catholic Community but the Lord test all of us and I look to the Church for the correct answer, I know the Church in the name of Unity would not stand idle on the sidelines, letting misconceptions become no big deal when preserving the truth, the Church would not support Erwin's statements to the Creed without clarifying for people who he is speaking for and I am part of the Catholic Church and represent the Catholic Church with my voice here and participation. God bless.