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UMP

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I think there is confusion as to what the gospel is.
This article may help clarify.

"Those who are saved are saved by the gospel itself; i.e., they are saved by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is the only “gospel salvation” there is. Hearing the gospel preached is the best “good news” sinners will ever hear in this life, but they are neither saved nor regenerated by merely hearing about it. The message of a work accomplished always arrives after the fact. It is finished."


The Gospel, or Talking About the Gospel?
When asked what the gospel of Jesus Christ is, many say it is “the power of God unto salvation,” drawing this from Romans 1.16, as though that verse somehow defines the gospel.
“The power of God unto salvation” is not the definition of the gospel. It is an attribute of the gospel and not the gospel itself. “Brown-eyed” is an attribute, but it does not define who and what a person is. If one asks, “What is an automobile?” and another answers, “It is the power of a gasoline engine to get you where you want to go,” he would be talking of an attribute of automotive engineering and not defining an automobile. His answer could as easily be applied to an airplane or to a riding lawnmower. In like manner, “the power of God unto salvation” describes the gospel, but it simply does not define it.
Nor is the gospel how you or I think the gospel should be defined. The Scriptures, as their own authority, say the gospel is defined by the Scriptures. Since the Scriptures were divinely originated, designed, inspired, and completed by God, nothing can be added to or taken away from their testimony as to exactly what the gospel is.
And preaching about the power of God, as important as that is, is not the gospel. Many sermons based on Romans 1.16 have expounded on God’s power, predestination, sovereignty, and His mighty works. As vital as these themes are, they do not constitute preaching the gospel of Christ Jesus. “The power of God unto salvation” could be applied to election, predestination, or even the omniscience of Jesus, as in the case of Zacchaeus in Luke 19: “…And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down…And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house….”. Such is part of the gospel account, but it is not the gospel. The gospel’s being “the power of God unto salvation” describes the gospel, then, but it does not define it.
When people say that “the gospel is the power of God unto salvation,” multitudes, because they have been mistakenly led to believe it so, think that this phrase means that the power is in the proclaimed message of the gospel. Neither Christ, Paul, nor any other apostle implied such a thing.
Most worldly religionists seem to think of “gospel preaching” as being like a salesman’s pitch: The used car salesman tells the virtues of a car and the benefits of owning it. He invites you to try it and buy it; and, hoping you will do so, he then must leave it up to you. Religionists think of the gospel preacher and his message in a similar manner. They in effect say, “The preacher is one who tells the virtues of Christ and the benefits of believing on Him, he invites you to accept Him, and, hoping that you will do so, he must leave it up to you.” Nothing could be much farther from Scriptural truth.
An automobile is one thing, but a used-car salesman’s patter about it is quite something else. If the message were really what gets the job done, everyone who has heard a car salesman’s yarn would be driving in style. Now, we know that this is a natural example, and the gospel is spiritual, as some will be quick to point out to us; but we mention this because multitudes of “evangelical Christians” see no difference between the natural and the spiritual. That is part of the problem mentioned earlier.
Lest anyone think this is an exaggeration, I’m more than happy to share the following quote from someone who knows all about making merchandise of the souls of men:
Evangelist Billy Graham is as much an American Institution as the stars and stripes…In his crusade to spread the gospel, he’s used nearly every technique known to Madison Avenue.
Says Graham: “We are selling the greatest product on earth. Why shouldn’t we promote it as effectively as we promote a bar of soap?”
—Dallas Times Herald, April 9, 1963, page 4 (From a Saturday Evening Post advertisement promoting a featured article on Mr. Graham in their then current issue.)
The gospel is a set of specific, witnessed, documented, historic facts. It is neither the preaching of those facts nor the preaching about those facts. True, a gospel preacher identifies and describes those facts, but his preaching is not the same thing as the gospel facts he is describing.
The facts of the gospel, what Christ hath done, are what have accomplished the salvation of God’s people. It is not the proclaiming of those facts as “the gospel message.” It is not as if the work of Christ is “one thing” and the preaching is “the other,” in the standard Arminian sense, “Christ has done His part, but we must do ours.” No, none of that! Regardless of what anyone says or does not say about it, Christ’s gospel is what He did, His finished work, period.
Wars have been won, and treaties have been signed, sometimes weeks and months before the soldiers in outposts, or their folks at home, found out the good news. It was an accomplished fact, freedom for a people had been won, sealed in the blood of the dead and the wounded, whether or not some of the participants and beneficiaries, for a time, had heard the blessed news. The hearing of the message, and for that matter, the believing or disbelieving of what one has heard, neither adds to nor takes away from the facts underlying the message. This is true whether it is a message of a war’s ending in victory or the message of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ’s having won the victory.
The gospel as actually defined in our text is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and why He died, and how: how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.
Paul declared the gospel in this letter to the church at Corinth. He declared the gospel to be the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, for “our” sins (whoever these “our” are, they plainly must include Paul, or else he could not say “our”); and all of that must be according to the Scriptures. Those facts alone, what Christ has done, constitute the gospel. There is a vital distinction between the gospel and the proclamation of it. The two are as different as life and talking about life, or death and talking about death.
Paul said he had previously received it. He says how he received it: “For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1.12).”
“But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood (Galatians 1.15f).”
God revealed His Son in Paul (or Saul) on the Damascene Road. He did not put His Son in him then. And Saul of Tarsus did not immediately seek out an apostle or a preacher who could explain the gospel to him.
Saul was already a brother, before he was baptized, when he first met with Ananias, who said, “Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 9.17).” That statement alone dispells the baptismal regeneration error.
Prior to his writing 1 Corinthians to them, Paul had already preached the gospel unto the church in Corinth. They had previously received it. Steeped as the church at Corinth was in Greek philosophy, man’s wisdom was worth nothing to Paul or to the Corinthian church (See 1 Corinthians, the first two chapters). Paul said, “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.” The testimony of God was the Old Testament.
“For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.” That is the center of the gospel Paul preached.
“And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” In chapter 1 he had already defined “the power of God” as being Christ Himself (1.24).
Their standing, Paul says, is in Christ. That means their legal standing was innocent and justified before God. All who are in Christ stand before God’s judgment bar legally as innocent, just, and pure as Jesus Christ their head.
Those who are saved are saved by the gospel itself; i.e., they are saved by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is the only “gospel salvation” there is. Hearing the gospel preached is the best “good news” sinners will ever hear in this life, but they are neither saved nor regenerated by merely hearing about it. The message of a work accomplished always arrives after the fact. It is finished.

C.C. Morris
Link : http://www.the-remnant.com/thegospel.htm
 
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bradfordl

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Rick,

Maybe because of this from the WCF:

10:3 Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit (Luk_18:15, Luk_18:16, and Act_2:38, Act_2:39, and Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, and 1Jo_5:12, and Rom_8:9 compared), who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth (Joh_3:8): so also, are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word (Act_4:12; 1Jo_5:12).

Been awhile since I went over the scripture proofs, but as I recall I came away in agreement the last time I did.

Brad
 
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UMP

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bradfordl said:
Rick,

Maybe because of this from the WCF:

10:3 Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit (Luk_18:15, Luk_18:16, and Act_2:38, Act_2:39, and Joh_3:3, Joh_3:5, and 1Jo_5:12, and Rom_8:9 compared), who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth (Joh_3:8): so also, are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word (Act_4:12; 1Jo_5:12).

Been awhile since I went over the scripture proofs, but as I recall I came away in agreement the last time I did.

Brad

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "wcf? ?
 
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heymikey80

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UMP said:
I think there is confusion as to what the gospel is.
This article may help clarify.

"Those who are saved are saved by the gospel itself; i.e., they are saved by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That is the only “gospel salvation” there is. Hearing the gospel preached is the best “good news” sinners will ever hear in this life, but they are neither saved nor regenerated by merely hearing about it. The message of a work accomplished always arrives after the fact. It is finished."
* * *
C.C. Morris
Link : http://www.the-remnant.com/thegospel.htm
Yes! Great quote.

The imagery that helps me is the rescue of a 2-year-old from the upper window a burning building. The rescue guy comes in, the child is pulled from the building -- maybe not even conscious -- and brought back to life.

Everything that follows is good news on the heels of the explosive news of the child's rescue.

What'd the child have to know to be saved? At human extremes, one might say the child must not to deny or hide from the rescuer. But the child need know nothing about the methods of rescue -- just to rely on the rescuer to rescue. And maybe not even that, if the child isn't even moving when the rescuer arrives, the rescuer is relied on to do the right thing by the child.
 
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mlqurgw

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UMP, am I reading too much into the writer of the article's premise by reading it as a Primitive Baptist would as showing that God saves apart from the preaching of the Gospel? If I am then just forget this post but if I am right then I do have some things to say concerning it. :)
 
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bradfordl

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heymikey80 said:
Yes! Great quote.

The imagery that helps me is the rescue of a 2-year-old from the upper window a burning building. The rescue guy comes in, the child is pulled from the building -- maybe not even conscious -- and brought back to life.

Everything that follows is good news on the heels of the explosive news of the child's rescue.

What'd the child have to know to be saved? At human extremes, one might say the child must not to deny or hide from the rescuer. But the child need know nothing about the methods of rescue -- just to rely on the rescuer to rescue. And maybe not even that, if the child isn't even moving when the rescuer arrives, the rescuer is relied on to do the right thing by the child.

Yes.....but....when the Rescuer has stated unequivocally what the means are by which He has ordained to accomplish that salvation/rescue, when that Rescuer is author and finisher of our faith, actually author and finisher of ALL things, why would He need to circumvent those means? Is He caught unprepared and therefore need to resort to "emergency measures"?

Brad
 
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heymikey80

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bradfordl said:
Yes.....but....when the Rescuer has stated unequivocally what the means are by which He has ordained to accomplish that salvation/rescue, when that Rescuer is author and finisher of our faith, actually author and finisher of ALL things, why would He need to circumvent those means? Is He caught unprepared and therefore need to resort to "emergency measures"?

Brad
I guess I don't think He's circumventing the means.
It is written "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Jn 6:44-45
God has ordained ordinary means of salvation, certainly. But God has never been constrained to ordinary means. "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jn 3:8 The interesting thing about this passage is that it reverses the role of those born of the Spirit. We follow to where the Spirit is, we don't bring the Spirit to people.

That has always impressed me as a wildly different view of preaching and evangelism. The Spirit's not dependent on us; we're dependent on the Spirit.

Even then the ordinary means of the Gospel don't have to be audible. The Gospel can be communicated without words.

And when sin and its corruptions prevent an elect person from hearing the Gospel, the Spirit is not bound to make eyes see or ears hear to communicate to that person. That's essentially the direct judgement of Dordt, when it concerns elect infants dying in infancy. I don't see why it would not extend to those who can't learn of the Gospel because of other infirmities.

Keep in mind, I think these are extraordinary events. For ordinary people God brings the visible church to His elect to visibly accept and embrace God's grace through visible means -- baptism, hearing the Gospel, the Supper, discipleship, fellowship. But there are extraordinary circumstances, and I don't doubt that God would save His elect even from these extraordinary infirmities.
 
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bradfordl

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It is written "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Jn 6:44-45

"Taught of God" would indicate to me that He teaches them what He has ordained they should know and believe whatever it is that He deems necessary.

God has ordained ordinary means of salvation, certainly. But God has never been constrained to ordinary means. "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jn 3:8 The interesting thing about this passage is that it reverses the role of those born of the Spirit. We follow to where the Spirit is, we don't bring the Spirit to people.

Agreed. My original point was that the indictment of Christianity's claim of exclusivity as unfair was specious. If God is God, He can ordain people to hear or not hear regardless of where and when they live. If He ordains some entire groups to not hear (natives in the jungle), the fact they have no access to the ordinary means of salvation is not unfair. They (and we all) deserve hell. The possibility of extraordinary means being available to them does not mitigate, because God needs no mitigation. So I will agree that God can save anyone He wants to by any means He determines. My only problem with extraordinary means is that it treads close to finding "another means" than Christ alone. But then as an act of God, it would necessarily be that.

Brad
 
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heymikey80

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bradfordl said:
My original point was that the indictment of Christianity's claim of exclusivity as unfair was specious. If God is God, He can ordain people to hear or not hear regardless of where and when they live. If He ordains some entire groups to not hear (natives in the jungle), the fact they have no access to the ordinary means of salvation is not unfair. They (and we all) deserve hell. The possibility of extraordinary means being available to them does not mitigate, because God needs no mitigation. So I will agree that God can save anyone He wants to by any means He determines. My only problem with extraordinary means is that it treads close to finding "another means" than Christ alone. But then as an act of God, it would necessarily be that.

Brad
Peace, and I think there's room for more stridency. As "there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved" God has ordained His means entirely through Christ -- though not absolutely through the ordinary means Christ has instituted where we learn of Christ, through teaching & learning.

To me it has to encompass people like Abraham, who was never "properly introduced" to Jesus on earth, but who "rejoiced to see his day" nevertheless. And of other people B.C. And of those who through lack of years or infirmity of mind don't come to know Him.
 
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UMP

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Rick Otto said:
I mean, it "solves the fairness issue" for those geographicaly out of preaching reach, but it also removes the mental shackles we place on God's ability & willingness to reach beyond what we usualy allow ourselves to imagine.:cool:

I think they call it "Amazing Grace" :)
The part that's really scary to me are those that are privileged to hear the good news of Christ's finished work and reject it as foolishness.:sigh:

Hebrews 2:
[3] How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Luke 12:
[47] And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
 
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UMP

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mlqurgw said:
UMP, am I reading too much into the writer of the article's premise by reading it as a Primitive Baptist would as showing that God saves apart from the preaching of the Gospel? If I am then just forget this post but if I am right then I do have some things to say concerning it. :)

I'm not exaclty sure what you mean, but go ahead anyway.
 
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UMP

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Mlqurgw,
I just LOVE your preacher !!:clap:

Infant Salvation

I am compelled to give a word of comfort and instruction concerning infants. As I was preparing to write this chapter, I received a lengthy, sad letter from a dear friend. She and her husband married fairly late in life, just two or three years ago. They have been trying to have a child. You can imagine their elation when they learned that she was pregnant. Then, my dear friend miscarried. You can imagine their disappointment. She wrote to ask me three things.
1. Was my unborn child a human being?
2. At what point is an unborn child a living person?
3. Is my child in heaven?
You can imagine my elation as I wrote back and said, “Yes, your baby is one of Christ’s jewels, taken from your womb into his everlasting arms and into his glory.

John Newton once said, “The majority of persons who are now in the kingdom of God are children.” I would not argue the point. When I think of all the multitudes of babies who have died in infancy, who are now swarming the streets of glory, I rejoice in God’s great wisdom and goodness. Though adults, generation after generation, die in rebellion and unbelief, countless multitudes of infant children have entered into the kingdom of heaven, saved by the grace of God, through the death of Christ, and forever sing the high praises of their great Redeemer and Friend before the eternal throne of his glory. — “Of such is the kingdom of heaven

I have no hesitancy in asserting that infants dying in infancy (That includes the infants slaughtered in abortion, burned upon heathen altars, the infants of Papists, Mohammedans, and Buddhists.) enter the kingdom God. I am fully convinced that all of our race who die in infancy are the objects of God’s eternal love, are redeemed by the blood of Christ, and born again by God the Holy Spirit. Let others object, if they please. For my part, I am delighted with this. Everything I read in the Book of God convinces me of it. All who leave this world as babies are saved.

How are they saved? How do they enter the kingdom? By works? By the exercise of their will? Of course not! They enter the kingdom by the mighty operations of God’s free grace. And if we enter the kingdom of God, that is exactly the way we will enter it.

However it is that they receive the kingdom of heaven, that is the way we must receive it (Luke 18:17). How do such children receive the kingdom of heaven? In the same way we must receive it! Certain it is that children do not receive the kingdom by birth or blood, for we are expressly told in John’s gospel that the children of God are born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh. No baby enters into heaven because it was born of godly parents, neither shall any be shut out because his parents are atheists, or idolaters, or ungodly. If saved, as I am convinced the Scriptures teach they are, infants must be saved simply according to the will and good pleasure of God, because he has made them his own by election, redemption, and regeneration.
Don Fortner

One day I think I'm gunna have to take a Sunday trip to your Church !!

 
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