Question:

[UMP]

Does God save some who never audibly hear the "Gospel"' preached ?

 

[xapis]

Referring back to a question I asked here a few weeks back, I'd say the unborn, infants, and the mentally-handicapped that die in their lack of hearing and knowledge would probably fit the bill.

Good question. I'm guessing this will lead to the classic "people in the jungle" theories and I'm very interested in reading others' responses.

 

[UMP]

Referring back to a question I asked here a few weeks back, I'd say the unborn, infants, and the mentally-handicapped that die in their lack of hearing and knowledge would probably fit the bill.

Good question. I'm guessing this will lead to the classic "people in the jungle" theories and I'm very interested in reading others' responses.

Yes,
I agree with you and remember that thread.
Just wanted more feedback from others.
Hey, did you read that book yet?
The "Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink.

 

[xapis]

Yes,
I agree with you and remember that thread.
Just wanted more feedback from others.
Hey, did you read that book yet?
The "Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink.

I have it bookmarked. It's in my mental stack of stuff to read and I will read it. I will probably try to fit it in next after I finish White and Hunt's "Debating Calvinism".

Thanks.

 

[UMP]

I have it bookmarked. It's in my mental stack of stuff to read and I will read it. I will probably try to fit it in next after I finish White and Hunt's "Debating Calvinism".

Thanks.

You don't understand !!
This is the book to end all books !!
GET BUSY

 

[bradfordl]

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

There may be some basis for the idea that those incapable of comprehending (infants, mentally incapacitated, etc.) being given a saving faith, but if God is completely soveriegn, then those who are capable of comprehension, and yet in God's providence never hear, it seems to me must be a part of the damned. Had a hard time with that in the past, but it's the only logical position I can figure out.

 

[mlqurgw]

You already know my position and why. If anyone doesn't check the Primitive Baptist thread.

 

[UMP]

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

There may be some basis for the idea that those incapable of comprehending (infants, mentally incapacitated, etc.) being given a saving faith, but if God is completely soveriegn, then those who are capable of comprehension, and yet in God's providence never hear, it seems to me must be a part of the damned. Had a hard time with that in the past, but it's the only logical position I can figure out.

No hearing done here:

John 3:
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

How was John the Baptist able to jump for joy in his mothers womb having never heard the "gospel" ?

2 Corinthians 12:9
..."for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "

I can think of few things weaker than an aborted child.

 

[mlqurgw]

No hearing done here:

John 3:
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Christ said just prior to this that you must be born again. How can you be born again if you have never been born the first time? This passage actually has nothing to do with salvation apart from the Gospel, Christ is showing the sovereignty of God in salvation. Many hear the Gospel and never believe because they have not the Spirit putting it into their hearts.

How was John the Baptist able to jump for joy in his mothers womb having never heard the "gospel" ?

In exactly the same way that Simeon in Lk. 2:25-32 understood that he had seen the salvation of God, by the Spirit. Again this has nothing to do with salvation apart from the Gospel. John the Baptist was born and did hear the Gospel at some point by the Scriptures and declared plainly that Christ Jesus was the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

2 Corinthians 12:9
..."for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "

I can think of few things weaker than an aborted child.

This isn't the context of the passage nor is it a proof text for the salvation of aborted children. Actually it is reading into the passage something you want to believe. The context and the meaning is that we who belive are made strong in weakness. If we live in our own strength we have no need of God and He causes us to know our weakness and need of Him.

 

[UMP]

Mlqurgw

Do you have children?

Do you have mentally handicaped children?

Mark 10:
[14] But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

To be sure, I have little ammo for my position
However, I believe the Bible, and the nature of God as a God full of mercy and grace bolsters my belief.
Yes, the Gospel is a GREAT means that God uses, however God is not limited and His hand is indeed "not too short that it cannot save"

 

[bradfordl]

No hearing done here:

John 3:
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I don't understand how that is evidence of cognizant individuals being saved without ever hearing the Gospel. Maybe you could expand.

How was John the Baptist able to jump for joy in his mothers womb having never heard the "gospel" ?

I think I agree with Mlqurgw on that one.

2 Corinthians 12:9
..."for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "

I can think of few things weaker than an aborted child.

This is another one that I don't see as evidence of your point. As I stated, I can see the possibility of those incapable of understanding the Gospel being given faith. I was addressing those that are capable. If it is God's plan that any person be saved, why would He not also provide the means in that plan?

I'm no grand intellect, and not as well read in things theologic as I should be, so I have to rest on simple logic. If God has determined a thing to be, then it seems to make sense that He would bring that thing about in a manner that concurs with scripture, and provide the necessary criteria.

Are you saying you believe there are people saved by some other means than the Gospel?

Yes, I have children -4- ages 5 - 12. They have heard the Gospel from birth. I know christian families with mentally handicapped children and have no reason to doubt their salvation. I thought we talking about the "people in the jungle" thing.

Brad

 

[UMP]

If it is God's plan that any person be saved, why would He not also provide the means in that plan?

For so it seemed good in His sight.

Indeed, as I have said several times, the audible Gospel is of primary means.
However, I do not believe God is limited in His means to save whom He chooses to save. I see a saved Child of God in John the Baptist leaping for joy in His mothers womb. If he had died right then and there I still believe he would be in eternity forever. I believe God is able and does regenerate and give saving faith without someone hearing the Gospel (at least in the traditional sense) After all, Jesus Christ is the word Himself and is He Himself limited in proclaiming His own Gospel to whom God has given Him? No. The thief on the cross is another good example of my position.

 

[mlqurgw]

I must wait to answer I must go make a living at hard labor.

 

[UMP]

Here is something very interesting I came across:
Answers from an "Old School Baptist" position.

10. Don't you believe that the preaching of the gospel is God's ordained means of bringing eternal salvation to the sinner?

• Answer: No, only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the dead sinner (John 3 : 6-8) .The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but doesn't produce life (llTim.1: 10).

11. How then do you explain I Corinthians 1 :21 and passages like it?

• Answer: The text says, "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Please notice, that the one saved by the gospel is a believer, one who believes in God, one who has already been born again ; he is not an alien sinner .

 

[bradfordl]

I see a saved Child of God in John the Baptist leaping for joy in His mothers womb. If he had died right then and there I still believe he would be in eternity forever.

Yes, a child of God....in God's plan. And he did not die right then....in God's plan. These "ifs" is where I have a problem. There are no ifs with God. He carries out His plan perfectly and precisely. When His plan is that one of His own is to come to faith, He has included in that unchangeable plan to provide the means...the means that His own word calls for, the gospel. I would have to assume He provides for them to understand, at whatever level He has ordained them capable, that gospel. But still the gospel.

Again I have to ask you if you believe there are any saved by any other way than the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Is there some need to believe that God does not operate as He says he does in His word? His arm is not shortened, as you say, and there is no set of circumstances He needs to 'work around' to accomplish His aims. He says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. He also says that he that would enter by any other way is a thief and a robber. So why would He need to abrogate that to save isolated jungle dwellers that He himself ordained to live out their lives never hearing? I can't see the logic in that.

Brad

 

[Rick Otto]

on what "The Gospel" realy is.
Is it "The Story" or is it "The Truth"?
Can the two be seperated?

I'm not a "universalist", but Romans 1:20 says that knowledge of God's existence IS universal 'so that none are without excuse'.

I'm tempted to believe that "hearing" isn't necessarily literal (I haven't greeked it yet), and that "even the Godhead" part of the Romans passage points to personality, specificaly messianic.
And maybe it's a Psalm that says something is "written in the stars"...
Maybe I'm trippin'.
I better check out Henry & Gill,
but isn't there another verse that says every tribe & tongue will be in heaven? That may be some charismatic hangover, I'm not sure.

Works been real busy lately.

I'll try and check my references & git right back.

 

[mlqurgw]

Mlqurgw

Do you have children?

Do you have mentally handicaped children?

Mark 10:
[14] But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

To be sure, I have little ammo for my position
However, I believe the Bible, and the nature of God as a God full of mercy and grace bolsters my belief.
Yes, the Gospel is a GREAT means that God uses, however God is not limited and His hand is indeed "not too short that it cannot save"

Yes I have 2 grown daughters and a 4 month old grandaughter. I have no mentally handicapped children but know several who do. As all infants they are sweet and wonderful and a joy to know but they are not innocent.

It is dangerous to build doctrine on emotion and what we would like to be true. God is more than just mercy and grace though. He is alo righteous and just and jealous and true. As I said before it isn't a matter of what God can do as though we could bind god but a matter of what He says that He wil do and what He does. To say that He doesn't save apart from the preaching of the Gospel doesn't limit Him but simply recognizes that He has ordained the means as well as the manner. God can do anything but He only does that which he desires to do and has purposed to do by the means He has in infinite wisdom ordained it be done. I would have to ask you to show me one instance from the Scriptures where a person was save apart from the Gospel. We've already dealt with John the Baptist.

 

[mlqurgw]

on what "The Gospel" realy is.
Is it "The Story" or is it "The Truth"?
Can the two be seperated?

I'm not a "universalist", but Romans 1:20 says that knowledge of God's existence IS universal 'so that none are without excuse'.

I'm tempted to believe that "hearing" isn't necessarily literal (I haven't greeked it yet), and that "even the Godhead" part of the Romans passage points to personality, specificaly messianic.
And maybe it's a Psalm that says something is "written in the stars"...
Maybe I'm trippin'.
I better check out Henry & Gill,
but isn't there another verse that says every tribe & tongue will be in heaven? That may be some charismatic hangover, I'm not sure.

Works been real busy lately.

I'll try and check my references & git right back.

The verse is in Revelation and it is out of every nation and tongue and tribe and people.

EDIT; I now realize how this post seems extremely arrogant and I just want to apologize for it. I was in a hurry when I posted and only intended to point to the passage. I highly respect you Rick Otto and was only trying to help. I am embarrassed by it but will leave it just as a reminder to myself to think more before I post about how it could be received.

 

[UMP]

This is what I believe :


VI) Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit - The Holy Spirit accomplishes the new birth by direct operation upon the heart, and therefore works independently of all agency of man, including the gospel as preached by man.
Since the gospel is a spiritual thing, and since natural man rejects things of the Spirit, the gospel can never serve towards elevating natural men to a state of spirituality. Belief of the gospel is not a cause of spiritual birth; rather, it is a manifestation of such birth (Jn 1:11-13, Jn 5:24, Jn 8:43-47, Jn 10:25-27, Acts 13:48, 1Cor 1:18, Gal 5:22-23, 1Thes 1:4-5).
The scriptures teach certain infants have experienced spiritual birth (Ps 8:2, Ps 22:9, Mt 11:25, Mt 21:16, Lk 1:15, Lk 1:41) even though infants are incapable of receiving the preached word. However, the scriptures offer no support to the theory that infants are spiritually quickened by means other than adults. Indeed, the opposite is suggested (Mk 10:15). Nor do the scriptures teach a different scheme of spiritual quickening for those in Old Testament times. There is but one method of spiritual quickening that can be common to all; namely, by direct operation of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus taught that those dead in trespasses and sins would be quickened by the power of his voice (Jn 5:25-29). In this same context it is taught this voice will also raise the bodily dead at the end of time. A man can give the words of Christ but not His voice, and as Christ will not use man to raise the bodily dead, neither does He use man to raise the spiritually dead.
If it were the purpose of the gospel to accomplish spiritual birth in natural men, then the gospel should be most urgently directed toward the nonspiritual. In fact, this is not its principal direction in the scriptures (2Thes 3:1-3, Rom 15:31, Acts 18:9-10).
Though certain of the elect may be deprived of the natural faculties or circumstances necessary to receive the preached word (2Sam 12:18-23, Mt 9:37-38, Rom 15:30-31, 2Thes 3:1), such considerations do not limit the power of God to directly reveal His Son in the hearts of all the elect (Mt 11:25, Mt 16:17, Mt 21:16, Lk 1:15, Lk 23:39-43, Jn 5:25, Jn 5:38, Jn 6:37, Jn 6:44-45, Gal 3:8, Heb 8:10-12).
VII) Revealing Gospel - The purpose of the gospel is to bring those quickened by the Spirit to the intelligible discovery of the Lord Jesus, and transform them to the example of His life, in both truth and works, that God may be glorified thereby.
Though the Spirit produces life without the means of the preached word, it is the gospel which brings this life and immortality to light (Rom 1:16-17, 2Tim 1:9-10).
The gospel establishes believers in truth, convicts them of their sins, and leads them to repentance (Ps 119:9-11, Acts 17:30-31, Col 1:3-6, 2Tim 3:16-17) that God may be glorified, both by their profession and works (Mt 5:16, Acts 13:48, Rom 15:8-9, 1Cor 6:20, Philip 2:9-11, 2Thes 1:12, 2Thes 3:1).
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (Rom 1:16, 1Cor 1:18, 1Cor 1:23-24), in that it delivers those quickened by the Spirit from the darkness of Satan unto the light of Christ (Jn 8:12, Jn 12:46, Acts 13:47, 1Jn 1:5), and leads them to the intelligible discovery of their Savior (1Cor 14:24-25), and transforms them toward the example of His life (2Cor 3:18, Philip 2:5-11, 1Jn 2:6), all of which will be brought to perfection at His glorious appearing (1Cor 15:51-57, Philip 3:20-21, 1Jn 3:2).
All other forms of knowledge are inferior to the gospel (Philip 3:8-11), and without the gospel there can be no true worship (Jn 4:24, Jn 5:22-23). The gospel is inherently evangelical. All who are blessed to have it are commanded to teach it to others also (Mt 5:14-16, Mt 10:27, 2Tim 4:1-6, 1Pet 3:15), and this should be the happy task of all who love God's truth and His children.

Link:
http://www.pb.org/abstract.html

 

[Rick Otto]

'pperciated that!

brad,
ya said, "I can see the possibility of those incapable of understanding the Gospel being given faith."

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm curious, where do you see the possibility?


mqurgw(I wish I knew how to pronounce that),
I didn't catch any arrogance vibes.