Question.

[aReformedPatriot]

Cool analogy, my answer to the question posed to me in it is that God is going to cleanse me because I have faith that is what he is going to do.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Cool analogy, my answer to the question posed to me in it is that God is going to cleanse me because I have faith that is what he is going to do.

And from the catholic view point one must first have that faith (an action/work on the part of the belive) then one must contunie to follow the path of cleansing through teh sacrements and Good Works and Suffering. None with in them self will cleanse us just as sitting in the bathtub scrubbing one self with no water or soap will not clean us. But with the addition of God's Saving Grave we become cleansed.

Sort of the Auto Car Wash verus the hand car wash.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Cool analogy, my answer to the question posed to me in it is that God is going to cleanse me because I have faith that is what he is going to do.

OK . . .but is He going to do that if your faith is dead? A mere corpse?



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

hi thereselittleflower...

I thought works can be meritorious, can have merit before God to help ourselves and others:

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.


We cannot merit the grace of initial salvation, which is purely a gift of God, but we can thru our actions merit other graces for ourselves and others (such as prayers for those in purgatory).

Faith, though not a work, is in part a gift from God and in part a free response by man and thus an act of will. So even faith has an aspect of action to it.

Marcia

Meriting and earning are somewhat different, though realated, concepts . . .

We do not "earn" more Grace . . .we open to door to more grace by our hearts response to God in faith and works . . .

Everything in Christianity is about Grace . . everything in Catholicism is about Grace . .



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Nope.

What Kind of Works does a Catholic do?

Basically in a nut shell, the spiritual and corporal acts of mercy:

THE WORKS OF MERCY


THE CORPORAL ACTS

1. To feed the hungry: "For I was hungry and you gave me to eat." Mt. 25:35
2. To give drink to the thirsty: "...I was thirsty and you gave me to drink..." Mt. 25:35
3. To clothe the naked: "I was...naked and you clothed me..." Mt. 25:36
4. To visit the imprisoned: "I was in prison and you came to me." Mt. 25:36
5. To shelter the homeless: "...I was a stranger and you took me in..." Mt. 25:35
6. To visit the sick: "...I was sick and you cared for me..." Mt. 25:36
7. To bury the dead: "Amen, I say to you, insofar as you did it for one of these least of my brothers, you did it for me." Mt. 25:40

THE SPIRITUAL ACTS

1. To admonish the sinner: "...there will be more joy in Heaven at the repentance of one sinner than at ninety-nine of the righteous who had no need of repentance." Lk. 15:7
2. To instruct the ignorant: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the good news to all creation." Mk. 16:15
3. To counsel the doubtful: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you...Let not your hearts be troubled..." Jn. 14:27
4. To comfort the sorrowful: "Come to me, all you grown weary and burdened, and I will refresh you." Mt. 11:28
5. To bear wrongs patiently: "...Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you." Lk. 6:27-28
6. To forgive all injuries: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Mt. 6:12
7. To pray for the living and the dead: "Father, I desire that they, too, may be with me where I am..." Jn. 17:24

BAsically to fulfill the royal laws of love . . . Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all thy heart, all thy strength all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.



Peace in Him!

 

[aReformedPatriot]

OK . . .but is He going to do that if your faith is dead? A mere corpse?



Peace in Him!

Why then I suppose it wouldnt be genuine faith then would it? It is as Paul says, it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with you mouth that you confess it and are saved. No work stemming from a corpse is going to do him any better, it will just bring us back to square one of Eph 2:8-9 where works do you no good. A true faith will produce the works, ergo that will bring us into the Book (or is it epistle?) of James.

When 90% of America says "I belive in God" I laugh and say so what. Theres no fruit stemming from that belief.

But in anycase, now that I know we're definitly not on the same page, that brings me back to my first sentence:

"Ok, now I am hearing conflicted things from a few different catholics. So i dunno what to believe now lol. "

I went to my bookshelf and dusted off my Catechism. Now one of ya'll who knows it open up thiers and point me to the official position and let us have a dandy, awesomely friendly study so that I (and we) may understand the churches position... Please

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Im gonna take a nap now by the way... Until later... Peace in Him

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ok, now I am hearing conflicted things from a few different catholics. So i dunno what to believe now lol.

What seems conflicting to you?

I agree nothing unclean enters the Kingdom Gates, and thank God for His Grace. All in here no doubt know Eph 2:8-9. For by Grace you have been saved through faith...not by works. Continue on a few verses more then you hear about works God has prepared for you.

And the kind of works Paul is always speaking against in his letters are the works of the law . . people trying to earn salvation through keeping the law of the Old Covenant . ..

This is very different than the works James speaks of in chapter 2 of his epistle . . good works done in and through God's grace . .

2 different works . .. but if not differentiated from each other, can lead to a great deal of confusion as this has in protetantism. It confused Luther as well, and he wanted to through out the epistle of James for this very reason . . he thought James was speaking of the same works Paul was .. . and he wasn't!

Though, if you read Luther, he said the same thing we say . . he said faith and works are inseperable . . like light and heat is to a flame . . however, even so, he did not give works an equal position along side faith - he looked at works as a by product which is the popular protestant conception . . .

This is my view. God does the saving because of his grace, through our faith, and that everything we try and do for God, or our ourselves in that case is moot. Now that one is saved by grace through faith we can now produce the fruits of that faith, IE works. [/quoe]

Everything we do by ourselves OUTSIDE OF God's Grace is moot!

If everything we do, even in and through God's greace is moot, then the words in James which speaks about our faith being a dead corpse with out works is pure nonsense . .

Is anything in God's word pure nonsense?

But in anycase, now that I know we're definitly not on the same page, that brings me back to my first sentence:

"Ok, now I am hearing conflicted things from a few different catholics. So i dunno what to believe now lol. "

I went to my bookshelf and dusted off my Catechism. Now one of ya'll who knows it open up thiers and point me to the official position and let us have a dandy, awesomely friendly study so that I (and we) may understand the churches position... Please

I will see if anyone has posted it yet.


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Why then I suppose it wouldnt be genuine faith then would it? It is as Paul says, it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with you mouth that you confess it and are saved. No work stemming from a corpse is going to do him any better, it will just bring us back to square one of Eph 2:8-9 where works do you no good.

Again, the works Paul is speaking of are not the same works at all . . works of the law are not the good works in and through Grace James is speaking of . .


Let's go back to James analogy again . .

Faith is like the body . .

Works is like the spirit ..

If you separate them, neither of them is going to do any good . .

Just like a disembodied spirit cannot effect anythig in this life, neither can works without faith effect antyhing for us . .

And just like a corpse can not longer effect anything in this life, a faith that does not have good works cannot effect anything for us either . .



Remember, it is not our faith that saves us . . .


It is God's Grace . . . through our heart's response to His Grace . .


Peace in Him!





A true faith will produce the works, ergo that will bring us into the Book (or is it epistle?) of James.

When 90% of America says "I belive in God" I laugh and say so what. Theres no fruit stemming from that belief.[/QUOTE]

 

[Highway of Life]

Lol. Im not trying to pick a fight. I usually reserve debating for moral issues anymore now instead of theology. I just have an insatiable urge to ask everybody questions about everything. I drive myself nuts and I feel like id be a good interrogator sometimes

I am the EXACT same way! I know you are not trying to pick a fight.

HoL

 

[Benedicta00]

Cool analogy, my answer to the question posed to me in it is that God is going to cleanse me because I have faith that is what he is going to do.

Not against your free will he isn’t. What was him saying we need to die to self all about if he will do all the work just because we have faith? Do you realize that we are born with big gaping wounds we call sin? We are born prideful, envious, greedy, lustful, etc. God's going to heal us even if we don't die to self? All we have to do is have faith and God will do the rest? Where's that found in scripture?

 

[Benedicta00]

Why then I suppose it wouldnt be genuine faith then would it? It is as Paul says, it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with you mouth that you confess it and are saved. No work stemming from a corpse is going to do him any better, it will just bring us back to square one of Eph 2:8-9 where works do you no good. A true faith will produce the works, ergo that will bring us into the Book (or is it epistle?) of James.

When 90% of America says "I belive in God" I laugh and say so what. Theres no fruit stemming from that belief.

And what is genuine faith IYO? Just really, really believing? If you really, really believe that Jesus is Lord God will cleanse you even though you do not make one single act of your will to die to all the self love you have for yourself?

If you have faith then you need to by an act of your will show that you do by dying to all the self holds worth while and growing in the love of God. God is no going to force you to love him or to believe in him- it takes an act of the will.