Question regarding Justification.

Ndjt said:

I see, so do you believe there are people in Heaven who never heard of Christ?

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no, but some just encountered Him at death.

In regards to the natural law that St. Paul speaks of in Romans 2, I believe his most in depth & most brief: The Abolition of Man is most applicable.

The Abolition of Man - Wikipedia

I believe C.S.Lewis was diagnosing something that has only moved much further along since his great observation.

Lukaris said:

I believe C.S.Lewis was diagnosing something that has only moved much further along since his great observation.

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yup

ArmyMatt said:

yup

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You know Father I tend to think that C.S. Lewis was probably more within the paradigm that St. Ignatius ( Brianchaninov) was in but saw the fracture ( eventual breakdown of gender for ex.). I believe St. Ignatius was aware of eventual paradigm breakdown but it had not yet happened in his lifetime.

This I believe in today’s world is why we need to articulate the divine moral law as traditionally understood as the natural law. We seem to be in an almost post Abolition of Man ( not to say post Christian) world. What is “natural law” now is largely a false natural law whereas before it was much less so.

I am getting into an area above my iq pay grade & have to get back to work at the moment.

Lukaris said:

You know Father I tend to think that C.S. Lewis was probably more within the paradigm that St. Ignatius ( Brianchaninov) was in but saw the fracture ( eventual breakdown of gender for ex.). I believe St. Ignatius was aware of eventual paradigm breakdown but it had not yet happened in his lifetime.

This I believe in today’s world is why we need to articulate the divine moral law as traditionally understood as the natural law. We seem to be in an almost post Abolition of Man ( not to say post Christian) world. What is “natural law” now is largely a false natural law whereas before it was much less so.

I am getting into an area above my iq pay grade & have to get back to work at the moment.

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you’re definitely not wrong from where I sit, that’s for sure.

Ndjt said:

It does actually make sense, I think that at this point having read quite a bit about this issue and after reading the verses used to prove Sola Fide in their correct context I can no longer hold to a Reformed soteriology. I do have a question regarding the Orthodox Church though, what do you guys believe happened to those who died before Christ? How were Old Testament believers saved? And what happens to those who die nowadays without ever hearing the Gospel?

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Once again, it is about COVENANT! Salvation was an act of belief by which one entered the covenant of God and the covenant community - the church. The word "church" exists in the Old Covenant. It is the Hebrew word qāhēl, which is found in Psalms 22:22:

Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Now see how St. Paul quotes the same verse:

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Salvation in the OT was being part of the covenant congregation. These were the believers who went down into Hades and awaited the coming of the Messiah.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (i.e. Hades)

This is called in Orthodoxy "The Harrowing of Hell."

Let's look at this another way: Romans 6:3 says that when we are baptized, we are baptized into Christ. We also see in Colossians that baptism is the "circumcision made without hands." Circumcision was the covenant ritual by which one was made part of the covenant congregation. So making the connection, we see that baptism and circumcision achieve the same thing - union with the covenant body, the Church (congregation), which in the NT is called "The Body of Christ). This action was so important that if one was not circumcised, he was said to have no part in the nation of Israel.

So my answer would be that salvation in the OT is the same as in the NT - it is a covenant relationship which is entered into by a specific action. The OT, that action is circumcision. In the NT, baptism.

As for those who have not heard of Christ, St. Paul addresses this issue also in Romans 2:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Those who have not the law - they have never heard of Christ or the Gospel of Salvation. Yet there is a working of the Spirit of God within them which speaks to their conscience. A very good picture of this is the Centurian, Cornelius, in Acts 10. Here is a man who is not a Jew and has, at best, a limited understanding of God. He appears to know there is a God, and he does the things of the law - that is - the acts of the law of love - the giving of alms (love to man) and prayers (love to God). These things come before God, who is just and merciful, and bring him to salvation through the meeting with Peter and hearing the Gospel.

The mercy of God is far greater than we can understand. My problem with Reformed soteriology is that it severely truncates that mercy. We cannot even begin to understand the infinite mercy of God.

ArmyMatt said:

technically not correct. the Old ethics remain, only fulfilled in Christ and looked at through what He did on the Cross.

and these are also found in the Law.

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When speaking of the old ethics, I am particularly speaking of those ceremonial and religious laws which were given to the Old Covenant people. This is what St. Paul spent his days fighting - those who wanted to put Christians back under the laws of circumcision and dietary restrictions, which were part of the Old Covenant law.

The moral law, as contained in the 10 Commandments, is binding upon mankind. I believe it to be the ethics of the New Covenant and according to Matthew 25, will be the basis upon which we shall be judged, i.e. did we love God supremely and did we love our neighbors as ourselves?

Calvinist thought wishes to place a new set of religious laws upon people to replace the old ceremonial laws of Judaism. Yet they miss the greater things of the true law, which are love, while straining out the gnats of religious belief and observation.

One great difference between Western Christianity and Orthodoxy is, as you know, Western Christianity is very intellectual. That's why churches pick their preachers, not on the experience of God they may have had, but rather on their ability to drone on for an hour-long sermon and make people's emotions twitch. Orthodoxy is based on experiencing God in a very personal manner, the monks of Mt. Athos and elsewhere being perhaps the best examples of this.

Light of the East said:

The moral law, as contained in the 10 Commandments, is binding upon mankind. I believe it to be the ethics of the New Covenant and according to Matthew 25, will be the basis upon which we shall be judged, i.e. did we love God supremely and did we love our neighbors as ourselves?

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there’s more to the moral law than the 10 Commandments

Light of the East said:

When speaking of the old ethics, I am particularly speaking of those ceremonial and religious laws which were given to the Old Covenant people. This is what St. Paul spent his days fighting - those who wanted to put Christians back under the laws of circumcision and dietary restrictions, which were part of the Old Covenant law.

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and again, not destroyed but fulfilled. that’s not the same thing.

ArmyMatt said:

there’s more to the moral law than the 10 Commandments

and again, not destroyed but fulfilled. that’s not the same thing.

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Okay. If it is fulfilled, then are we still bound by the Old Covenant regulations which St. Paul was fighting?

Light of the East said:

Okay. If it is fulfilled, then are we still bound by the Old Covenant regulations which St. Paul was fighting?

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not the cultural ones unique to the Jews.

as one example, we don’t eat meat with its lifeblood in it, and that command goes back to Noah.

ArmyMatt said:

as one example, we don’t eat meat with its lifeblood in it, and that command goes back to Noah.

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?? Did you mean we DO eat meat with it's lifeblood in it?? I have never heard that Christians of any stripe are to eat Kosher (without blood).

Light of the East said:

?? Did you mean we DO eat meat with it's lifeblood in it?? I have never heard that Christians of any stripe are to eat Kosher (without blood).

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no, I mean we don’t. read Acts and the council of Jerusalem. as Orthodox, we don’t.

ArmyMatt said:

no, I mean we don’t. read Acts and the council of Jerusalem. as Orthodox, we don’t.

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It is obvious that I do not understand what it means that we do not eat meat with the lifeblood in it, especially since I see Orthodox eating hamburgers, lamb roasts, etc. Could you explain to me what is meant by that statement?

Light of the East said:

It is obvious that I do not understand what it means that we do not eat meat with the lifeblood in it, especially since I see Orthodox eating hamburgers, lamb roasts, etc. Could you explain to me what is meant by that statement?

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the blood should be cooked out

Outstanding way of framing it. Very nice.

Justin-H.S. said:

When Moses took the Hebrews across the Red Sea (the waters of Baptism), they left Egypt (the pagan world; Paganism is the default position of the world, but I digress) and were born again to begin their journey to the Promised Land. The Hebrews weren't automatically transported to the Promised Land once they were Baptized through the Red Sea. They faced many demons and trials on their way. Same with us, when we are born again through Baptism, the Spiritual War is inaugurated within us, but most importantly it's when we're joined to Christ.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

Outstanding way of framing it. Very nice.

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agreed

Light of the East said:

Okay. If it is fulfilled, then are we still bound by the Old Covenant regulations which St. Paul was fighting?

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It was fulfilled under the law of love. Love is the spirit, the law is the fruit of the spirit. We are not saved or bound by the fruit of the spirit, we are saved and bound by the spirit itself.

There are many saints/holy men who would break their fast out of love, for hospitality, or to stop others fighting over the fast. The fast is not the important part, the love we have which is expressed through and by the fast is what is important. The same is is true for all physical things, whether laws, scripture, or church buildings or authority. We have scripture not because the scripture is what is important as protestants see it, but because the spirit behind the scripture is. We have laws not because the law is important as the pharisees saw it, but because the spirit behind the law is. We have the church not because the physical institution is important, as ecumenists and sergianists see it, but because the spirit behind the church is important.

Ndjt said:

Hello, I have been looking into the Orthodox Church lately and it's very interesting, but also really confusing. I have been listening to people such as Fr. Josiah Trenham (Who comes from the same Reformed Tradition I am a part of), and while I've encountered several good arguments I have also encountered stuff that confuses me a lot. One of those confusing things is Orthodox soteriology. Could anyone point me to any Church statements explaining this? How is one justified in the EO Church? When does Regeneration occur? Is there anything like an Ordo Salutis?

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While I know that our Reformed and otherwise reformational friends mean well, they over-define many words and assign them significance far beyond what is actually there.

Justification is a fairly simple term. It means something like "to be put right" or "ordered rightly". Christ puts us back into our proper order, and that begins when we are baptized. There is not a mathematical equation that describes it, as you might find is many Protestant systematic theologies.

Christ is making creation what it ought to be. That is the essence of what justification is.