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Question regarding Elders

Frame1520

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Would someone mind mapping out the biblical qualifications of being an Elder? And also, I'd like to get your opinions on other necessary parts to being a leader (shepherd) over the flock. I believe that you must be biblically qualified, yet there is more to it than that. There are bad leaders who are qualified (and often are elected to the detriment of some congregations). What are your thoughts?
 

SoulFly51

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Below is a post I made in another thread ... so instead of writing it out again I simply copy/pasted:

These "qualifications" you're speaking of come from lists found in 1 Timothy and Titus.

Look at this:

Titus 1:5-14
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless-- not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach-- and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."
13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
(NIV)

Here's a list:
1) Blamless
2) Husband of one wife
3) Children must be obedient
4) Not overbearing
5) Not quick-tempered
6) Not a drunkard
7) Not violent
8) Honest
9) Hospitable
10) Loves what is good.
11) Self-Controlled
12) Morally upright
13) Holy
14) Disciplined

Paul goes on to say that these men must be able to refute doctrine that is unsound. The book of Titus was written to the church on the small island of Crete, and at the time of the writing the Cretan church had a big problem with false teachers attempting to infilitrate their ranks and spread false teaching.

Paul lays out these characteristics as those that should be found in that church's eldership because that was the problem that needed to be addressed.

Now, look at Timothy:

1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
(NIV)

1) Above reproach
2) Husband of one wife
3) Temperate
4) Self-Controlled
5) Respectable
6) Hospitable
7) Able to teach
8) Not a drunkard
9) Not violent
10) Gentle
11) Not quarrelsome
12) Not a lover of money
13) Must manage his family well
14) Obedient children
15) Not a new convert
16) Must have a good reputation with outsiders

Alright - there's the list from Timothy.

I need to point out that Paul wrote this letter to Timothy while Timothy was working in Ephesus. The letter of 1 Timothy never made it into the hands of the church in Crete, and the letter sent to Titus never made it into the hands of the church in Ephesus.

That is very important to understand, because many today work off of the assumption that these two different lists should be combined to form one comprehensive list to use in the process of elder selection.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. If these lists Paul wrote down were the requirements of elders, don't you think that it would be important to send the same list to each congegation (if they indeed were requirements)?

Don't you find it a little bit odd that Paul cites different qualifications for different congregations (if these are indeed qualifications)?

And if these are suppossed to be comprehensive "lists of the qualifications of an elder", don't you think that a lot is missing?

What about elders who pray? What about elders who can actually lead?

It seems to me that if these are THE qualifications of an elder the list would certainly be longer.

After much study and prayer, I have come to the conclusion that these are characteristics, not qualifications. If these are qualifications, then Jesus Christ would not have been qualified to be an elder. If these are characteristics, then things would be different.

Of course, I am keeping an open mind to the subject, and this is just my opinion. :)
 
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Frame1520

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I am just concerned and have been praying a lot about the church I attend. There is the idea of putting a man who is a deacon up for an eldership vote, yet I do not agree with him because of several different reasons. I'm just trying to decide if I am having a peronality conflict with him, or if he really would be bad for the congregation because of my concerns. I guess the question I am having trouble reconcilling is whether or not my concerns are valid. I'd be happy to discuss more but perhaps in PM would be best, if anyone cares to hear me out.

Thanks for the info though Wes, and Splayd. I find we are often on the same pages.
 
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JDIBe

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I understand your argument, but I have a problem with the word "must" being used constantly instead of the word "should" if they are general characteristics. Also, if they are just characteristics, which ones would be ok to leave out? Maybe they are characteristics, but "binding characteristics"....

As for Jesus Christ, I think He already has a job.... ;)
 
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SoulFly51

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Just to add to this a little bit ... if someone is going to officially be one of the "shepherds" of the church, then that person should already have a "flock."

In my opinion, you're asking for trouble forcing someone into a leadership position in the church who isn't already respected and viewed as a leader.
 
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ParsonJefferson

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I am just concerned and have been praying a lot about the church I attend. There is the idea of putting a man who is a deacon up for an eldership vote, yet I do not agree with him because of several different reasons. I'm just trying to decide if I am having a peronality conflict with him, or if he really would be bad for the congregation because of my concerns. I guess the question I am having trouble reconcilling is whether or not my concerns are valid. I'd be happy to discuss more but perhaps in PM would be best, if anyone cares to hear me out.

Thanks for the info though Wes, and Splayd. I find we are often on the same pages.

Having been in pastoral ministry - full time - for over 20 years now, I can tell you all kinds of things about Elders - both good and bad.

Good elders come in all shapes and sizes - as do bad ones.
 
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Frame1520

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In my opinion, you're asking for trouble forcing someone into a leadership position in the church who isn't already respected and viewed as a leader.

I agree with your whole post, but this last part really addresses my concern.
 
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Frame1520

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Having been in pastoral ministry - full time - for over 20 years now, I can tell you all kinds of things about Elders - both good and bad.

Good elders come in all shapes and sizes - as do bad ones.

I don't quite have your experience level, but when I first became a christan the church I was attending imploded because of bad leadership. It has not recovered.

I guess my biggest concern is do I want to be the loud voice that complains? Do I want to potentially cause a rift, or upset this man and his family to the point that they leave? No. I like them as people, but as a leader I cannot see anything but negative occurring. I've prayed a lot, and I don't know the answer, but everything in my gut says I should be vocal. Argh...It is concerning because I feel the burden of being the only one willing to speak up, even though others have the same thought...It is problematic when you are related to the minister....very problematic.:sigh:
 
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ParsonJefferson

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I don't quite have your experience level, but when I first became a christan the church I was attending imploded because of bad leadership. It has not recovered.

I guess my biggest concern is do I want to be the loud voice that complains? Do I want to potentially cause a rift, or upset this man and his family to the point that they leave? No. I like them as people, but as a leader I cannot see anything but negative occurring. I've prayed a lot, and I don't know the answer, but everything in my gut says I should be vocal. Argh...It is concerning because I feel the burden of being the only one willing to speak up, even though others have the same thought...It is problematic when you are related to the minister....very problematic.:sigh:

Yikes...

May I be so bold as to ask what the problem actually is?
 
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Splayd

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Just to add to this a little bit ... if someone is going to officially be one of the "shepherds" of the church, then that person should already have a "flock."

In my opinion, you're asking for trouble forcing someone into a leadership position in the church who isn't already respected and viewed as a leader.
Absolutely! That's a great point. I find that good elders are more often recognised than appointed.
 
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BlueJay180

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Elders (or pastors - "pastor" is the Greek word for "elder") are supposed to oversee the flock (congregation) and not evangelize (except when the preacher, minister, or evangelist is either sick or on vacation). Our ministers (preachers or evangelsits) are never to be called pastors - please do not call them pastors. The Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ (both instrumental and non-instrumental congregations) are supposed to steer away from denominationalism and preach/teach what has been taught in the First Century A.D. More later...
 
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AJB4

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Do you guys believe that the "children must be obedient" clause automatically excludes married men who don't have children?

At least by the Church of Christ, which are quite fundamentalist, a potential elder would have to be married with children.
 
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Frame1520

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Do you guys believe that the "children must be obedient" clause automatically excludes married men who don't have children?
It would be interesting to break down that text and see what the actual meaning is...The question is up in the air as to whether the text is implicit or explicit here. Some interpret the text to say that IF a married man has children, they must be obedient. Others still will argue that its a MUST situation, which therefore implies that children are necessary, and obedience of the children are likewise necessary.

Now, what do I think? Hmm. It is a tough question. If you consider it in logical thinking, a married man who has obedient, believing children would have had experience in the upbringing of his children, which led to them being believers in Christ...From that, one could assume that such a man would be a natural "overseer" over the flock (the church) because of his experience, and ability to guide his children down the path of truth and righteousness.

However, could a man without children be as good of a "leader"; an effective discipler for Christ? That is up in the air. There are many very wise, biblically sound married men who are excellent leaders within the church, yet they are not elders due to not having children who are obedient to Christ. One could argue for a case by case basis on which to judge such situations.

I would say this in light of the above statements. It is best to have elders (pastors, overseers, bishops, whichever you like to call them) who have children, even though an arguement can be made both ways. Is it a crucial issue? I don't think that it is, but the fact remains, that if someone has children, and they are obedient to Christ, then obviously, they have done something right as a parent to help them grow in the faith. If such men are not available within a congregation, is it acceptable to have married men without children as elders? I personally would say that the church ought to be without until God provides such a man to take on this critical role in growing the church, not just numerically, but most importantly, spiritually.

I hope that I have made sense here!

Now deacons, that is a different matter... :)
 
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ParsonJefferson

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Can an un-married man be an elder? Yes, without a doubt.
Can a married man, with no children, be an elder? Yes, without a doubt.

The "family" requirements that Paul was including were done so in the cotext of a culture where, all too often, men were either polygamous and/or extremely unfaithful to their wives.

- What abuot the wonderful, godly man who simply has never found a woman he wants to be married to?
- What about the wonderful, godly couple who are simply unable to have children?


On the other hand, I have learned from experience, that if a man has wild, disobedient children who either don't care or despise the Lord, there is something wrong in that home. And the same problems that are present in his home WILL eventually be manifest in the church too. The stories I could tell...
 
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