Question regarding Calvinism

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

I dunno if this is the right place to post this, but I had some questions I'd like to throw out there. I haven't had much opportunity to explore Calvinism yet - I have a few books on order [ specifically This Book, and This Book] - but I was wondering whether Calvinism isn't just the 5 T.U.L.I.P. statements, or is it something more?

If it's something more, what else is entailed within Calvinism that sets it aside from other theological systems?

billwald · Jun 19, 2006

No, because Calvin never heard of TULIP. It was formulated after his death in the same way that Jesus never heard of most of the stuff taught by Paul after his death.

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

billwald said:
No, because Calvin never heard of TULIP. It was formulated after his death in the same way that Jesus never heard of most of the stuff taught by Paul after his death.

Interesting. Then what is Calvinism, then? What I understand about TULIP - Calvin merely reiterated it in his wording, but it was already commonly accepted previous to him doing such.

cygnusx1 · Jun 19, 2006

intricatic said:
I dunno if this is the right place to post this, but I had some questions I'd like to throw out there. I haven't had much opportunity to explore Calvinism yet - I have a few books on order [ specifically This Book, and This Book] - but I was wondering whether Calvinism isn't just the 5 T.U.L.I.P. statements, or is it something more?

If it's something more, what else is entailed within Calvinism that sets it aside from other theological systems?

interesting thread , I am just flying by , my quick point is the first book will amaze you , it is very absorbing , the second book is harder going .

You may like to try 'The Bondage of The Will' by Martin Luther ..... it is almost a perfect match for Calvin's book. (both were written against opponents)

Happy reading !!

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

cygnusx1 said:
interesting thread , I am just flying by , my quick point is the first book will amaze you , it is very absorbing , the second book is harder going .

You may like to try 'The Bondage of The Will' by Martin Luther ..... it is almost a perfect match for Calvin's book. (both were written against opponents)

Happy reading !!

Thanks.

I'm usually very good when it comes to complex topics, and I absorb the ideas presented very quickly. I was blessed with an analytic mind.

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

No help? Come on, I know there are some Calvinists out there who want to share.

Any other book suggestions, at least?

JimfromOhio · Jun 19, 2006

intricatic said:
No help? Come on, I know there are some Calvinists out there who want to share.

Any other book suggestions, at least?

Another place you can learn about Calvinism is from:
Ask a Calvinist: The forum to ask Calvinists questions about their beliefs. From: Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Congregation> Semper Reformanda - Reformed

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Another place you can learn about Calvinism is from:
Ask a Calvinist: The forum to ask Calvinists questions about their beliefs. From: Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Congregation> Semper Reformanda - Reformed

Thank you!

I had no idea that subforum existed.

lmnop9876 · Jun 19, 2006

ok, i am a Christian in the Reformed tradition. there is a lot more to our tradition than the simple five points of 'calvinism'. a lot of the reformed confessions of faith were written before the five points were ever formulated. there are firstly, the five sola's, that is the Bible alone, Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone, and to the glory of God alone. then there are the 5 points. the two most misunderstood of the five solas are faith alone and the Bible alone.
by faith alone, we do not mean "justified by alone faith" which St. James plainly condemns in his general epistle. we mean, justified by faith without the deeds of the law, called to repentance and a life of good works through renewing by the Holy Spirit.
by Scripture alone, we don't mean, everyone can read the Bible themselves and interpret it themselves. we mean, the Scripture is inspired by God and infallible. all the teachings of the Church must agree with Scripture, and all the Church's interpretations of Scripture must agree with other parts of Scripture and with the Apostolic, catholic faith of the universal Church of all times. therefore, we condemn teachings such as the rejection of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, believing that in it He is our spiritual food and drink, received by faith, or the teaching that baptism is merely a symbol of regeneration, believing that it is much more, namely, that in baptism we are promised regeneration and remission of sins if we come with faith in the redeeming blood of Christ.

Amethystisagem · Jun 19, 2006

Spurgeon summarizes Calvinism thusly...

"I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross."
--Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856

" ... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright. It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is Alpha and Omega in the salvation of men."
--C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855

"You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election."
--Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130

"I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ."
--C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34

Amen?

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

Amethystisagem said:
Spurgeon summarizes Calvinism thusly...

"I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross."
--Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856

" ... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men."
--C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855

"You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election."
--Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130

"I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ."
--C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34

Amen?

Interesting. Reformed theologians have been catching my fancy lately. Is Spurgeon also a reliable source of systematic reformed theology? [yes, I am totally ignorant ]

This idea of Election also has me utterly baffled. I see people talking about it, and I have a vague understanding, but no matter how much I try to wrap my mind around it, it strikes me as a very bizarre and paradoxical idea.

BigNorsk · Jun 19, 2006

I would think you would certainly, if trying to understand Calvinism, just have to read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. Available online at that link as well as several others. Many people who proudly call themselve Calvinists because they believe in the areas of dispute commonly called TULIP would probably be shocked to find what Calvin taught. Making TULIP the basis of Calvinism is like making the steam the basis of the soup on the stove.

If you read Calvin, you will find him much closer to Luther than many who claim his name.

Marv

GraceInHim · Jun 19, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Another place you can learn about Calvinism is from:
Ask a Calvinist: The forum to ask Calvinists questions about their beliefs. From: Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Congregation> Semper Reformanda - Reformed

Thank you Jim..

Moving this thread where questions can be answered by Calvinist since it asks them

GraceInHim · Jun 19, 2006

Mod Note:

Moving thread to from General Theology to Congregation> Semper Reformanda - Reformed>ask a Calvinst

Please respect the forum rules

Peace

Amethystisagem · Jun 19, 2006

intricatic said:
Interesting. Reformed theologians have been catching my fancy lately. Is Spurgeon also a reliable source of systematic reformed theology? [yes, I am totally ignorant ]

This idea of Election also has me utterly baffled. I see people talking about it, and I have a vague understanding, but no matter how much I try to wrap my mind around it, it strikes me as a very bizarre and paradoxical idea.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon described himself as a "strong Calvinist." I am not terribly well read of him, though I am familiar with many of his quotes and have read dozens of his smaller articles and sermons. Spurgeon's Morning and Evening devotions are wonderful, rich, and soul-satisfying.

I can't accurately answer your question about his theology, although my guess would be that he is solid. Perhaps there is another forum member who can address this particular question. If you are interested in poking around, there is endless material found at Monergism.com. Go to the bottom of the main page and type in Spurgeon in the search box. Countless hours of reading is available there. Monergism.com has been a blessing as I've grown in these Reformed graces and I've learned much from reading there.

I myself was wholly ignorant of Reformed theology until just over a year ago when a friend (Christianforums member, Ryft, also Reformed) and I began an email discussion about what I then considered many Calvinistic heresies. I struggled with TULIP for months and months with much hand wringing and many tears. I fought Reformed theology it as hard as I could and with every verse I could, with every shred of reason and theology I could muster, and I found I was wrong, so ashamedly wrong.

I urge you to question the things you believe, question them in light of Reformed theology. Never stop asking the hard questions you may have always asked deep inside. The doctrines of grace have finally answered the questions I had that begged satisfaction and remained hungry. Pursue truth wholeheartedly and you will see it in startling clarity, and then wonder why you hadn't seen it all along.

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect number, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
- Canons of Dort (1619). First Head: Article 7

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."--Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

GraceInHim · Jun 19, 2006

Note: sent Mod from this forum a PM to close this thread, due to per OP's request..

intricatic · Jun 19, 2006

Amethystisagem said:
Charles Haddon Spurgeon described himself as a "strong Calvinist." I am not terribly well read of him, though I am familiar with many of his quotes and have read dozens of his smaller articles and sermons. Spurgeon's Morning and Evening devotions are wonderful, rich, and soul-satisfying.

I can't accurately answer your question about his theology, although my guess would be that he is solid. Perhaps there is another forum member who can address this particular question. If you are interested in poking around, there is endless material found at Monergism.com. Go to the bottom of the main page and type in Spurgeon in the search box. Countless hours of reading is available there. Monergism.com has been a blessing as I've grown in these Reformed graces and I've learned much from reading there.

I myself was wholly ignorant of Reformed theology until just over a year ago when a friend (Christianforums member, Ryft, also Reformed) and I began an email discussion about what I then considered many Calvinistic heresies. I struggled with TULIP for months and months with much hand wringing and many tears. I fought Reformed theology it as hard as I could and with every verse I could, with every shred of reason and theology I could muster, and I found I was wrong, so ashamedly wrong.

I urge you to question the things you believe, question them in light of Reformed theology. Never stop asking the hard questions you may have always asked deep inside. The doctrines of grace have finally answered the questions I had that begged satisfaction and remained hungry. Pursue truth wholeheartedly and you will see it in startling clarity, and then wonder why you hadn't seen it all along.

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect number, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
- Canons of Dort (1619). First Head: Article 7

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."--Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

Thank you. That was an incredibly insightful post.

Ive been struggling with this because there are so many conflicting perspectives on what Calvinism entails. I tend to massively go overboard whenever I get interested in a specific topic, my teachers absolutely love me. But this is the most recent bout of extra-curricular activities I've been persuing, and my "extra-curricular" activities never go away. Heh... I'm considering Seminary right now as a result.

But this gives me a lot to think about [at least until I get my books in the mail! ]. Thank you!

Amethystisagem · Jun 19, 2006

intricatic said:
I tend to massively go overboard whenever I get interested in a specific topic...!

Heh, that's me too. And a fine quality it is, I think

You're quite welcome. Best wishes,

Gem

intricatic · Jun 20, 2006

GraceInHim said:
Note: sent Mod from this forum a PM to close this thread, due to per OP's request..

Oh, no, the other one. Not this one.

mlqurgw · Jun 20, 2006

Here is a link to Author Pinks "Sovereignty of God." It is without doubt the best study on the doctrine of election out there. You can also access John Gill, the formost Baptist theologian, from the home page of Pinks Archive.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

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