Question please

[Nemnar]

I was curious how Methodist view the phrase "once saved, always saved" and I googled it. I came across something on the umc.org page about it, but I really cant discern a definitive answer. So, I was wondering if someone could explain it better, or kinda tell me how Methodist view it. Say someone is saved, Christ comes into their life, they are baptized, etc. Lets say that person starts giving in to sin, it just feeds on itself, and they fall farther and farther from God. Not totally rejection of God, just ignoring him, and that person were to die, what would happen?

 

[BryanW92]

I was curious how Methodist view the phrase "once saved, always saved" and I googled it. I came across something on the umc.org page about it, but I really cant discern a definitive answer. So, I was wondering if someone could explain it better, or kinda tell me how Methodist view it. Say someone is saved, Christ comes into their life, they are baptized, etc. Lets say that person starts giving in to sin, it just feeds on itself, and they fall farther and farther from God. Not totally rejection of God, just ignoring him, and that person were to die, what would happen?

Try googling "Prevenient Grace", "Sanctifying Grace", and "Justifying Grace". The Wesleyan views on "being saved" comes from those and there are plenty of writings on them. If you figure it, come back and let us know because it is very confusing.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I was curious how Methodist view the phrase "once saved, always saved" and I googled it. I came across something on the umc.org page about it, but I really cant discern a definitive answer. So, I was wondering if someone could explain it better, or kinda tell me how Methodist view it. Say someone is saved, Christ comes into their life, they are baptized, etc. Lets say that person starts giving in to sin, it just feeds on itself, and they fall farther and farther from God. Not totally rejection of God, just ignoring him, and that person were to die, what would happen?

I've highlighted the part of your question that makes it hard to answer. We understand God to be merciful AND faithful. So, God will never reject us. But we do believe that people have free will throughout their life to both accept and to reject God themselves. So, we don't accept the concept of "once saved, always saved" as being true to the Biblical witness (see Hebrews 10:26 & 29; 12:25; James 1:22-24; 1 John 2:19 among others). However, is ignoring God equivalent to rejection of God? I can't say. I think one would have to be able to see into and read a person's heart to answer that question, and such skills are beyond me. Also, some will say that such persons were never really members of the faith to begin with, and all that are truly faithful and not pretenders will be saved. To me that seems a grasping at straws. Maybe it is and maybe it is not that finely nuanced. Again, I don't know, and I don't think it makes much of a difference. That gets back to seeing into people's innermost being. All I know is that both the Bible and experience teach us that there are those who based on all outward appearances come to faith, yet in the end walk away from it. These people suffer the same reward (or even worse) as those who never came to faith to begin with.

But you and I should never judge a person based on outward experiences, that is not our task. Our job is to bear witness to the faith that is within us and share it with others, both those inside and outside the faith. The judging that we do do, and there is some, is not of those outside the church, but to hold accountable those who have confessed their faith in God through Jesus Christ to their confession.

 

[Nemnar]

Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I was curious how Methodist view the phrase "once saved, always saved" and I googled it. I came across something on the umc.org page about it, but I really cant discern a definitive answer. So, I was wondering if someone could explain it better, or kinda tell me how Methodist view it. Say someone is saved, Christ comes into their life, they are baptized, etc. Lets say that person starts giving in to sin, it just feeds on itself, and they fall farther and farther from God. Not totally rejection of God, just ignoring him, and that person were to die, what would happen?

I think all Christians will keep sinning, we're imperfect creatures with that tendency. I know the term "backslidden" is popular and I don't use it much myself, but it describes the scenario you're painting. Whether that person is saved or not is between him and God, so it's hard to say.

As a Christian and Methodist, I don't adhere to "once saved, always saved" I think people can choose in life to stop believing in and following God or lose faith.

 

[alton3]

Do United Methodists believe "once saved, always saved" or can we "lose our salvation"? - UMC.org

A short, but very incomplete answer, is that our Church teaches we can end up “losing” the salvation God has begun in us, and the consequence of this in the age to come is our eternal destruction in Hell. God freely grants us new birth and initiates us into the body of Christ in baptism. The profession of our faith and growth in holiness are necessary for God’s saving grace to continue its work in us, and both of these are things we must do for our love to be genuine and not compelled. We thus remain free to resist God’s grace, to revert to spiritual torpor, and possibly experience spiritual death and Hell as its consequence.

[..] Once saved, always saved? No. We’re not Calvinists. We don’t believe God has orchestrated the world and the universe to make that the necessary outcome for some limited number of the pre-selected. And we’re not reducing salvation to a propositional transaction, as some forms of American Protestant proclamation has done, so that once we believe and say certain things, no matter what else happens, we “have” salvation and can never “lose” it.

Once saved, always saved? No. But always, always called to the fullness of God’s salvation.

 

[Pastor J Dog]

once saved always saved?
evil people do evil things?
if you're a sinner, you were never saved in the first place?

IMO - there are other opinions far more useful than this one, that will help us mature spiritually...

it's not once saved always saved, it's saved by Jesus if he wants to save us.
calling someone eternally saved is like saying we transplanted Jesus' brain into our skull and have the lamb's book of life as our diary (no way! top secret. nobody knows. not moses. no elija. no elisha. top secret XD)
and we are all sinners! lol

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fyizzzzz------

do you know what kind of people force us people to think like that?

people who don't want you to know that they are doing evil stuff behind your back?

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did u know the only reason Jesus' barny with the law-giver Jewish dudes was over church attendence and tithing... they were just forcing ppl to like pay for their false teachings... thats horribles... aside from that the law still sticks. the law is only a dispute if the law-givers are hypocritical demon aliens. law fall away but not destroyed just renewed and made new and given Jesus' insight. they all wanted to kill him because how he opened the law. most people get really angry when you simply just quote Jesus... most ppl dont read jesus. just read paul and peter and john... but if you just read Jesus and occasional read those other not so important guys, wow... power
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not once saved always saved, it's saved in Jesus, don't worry about eternal salvation just follow him, if it make you sad - then go find clarification from Him (nobody else) that you are eternally saved. mb he gna say, or probably just that He love you and keep following Him and don't worry He's got you in His arms, just trust.

elija j baptist, paul, peter... johnzies and all these dudes was seeing God speaking to him and there are loads of ppl now... it is possible. just read Jesus be like Jacob and fight for his blessin... and stuff... ye hoohaa.... that's how im into it

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I was curious how Methodist view the phrase "once saved, always saved" and I googled it. I came across something on the umc.org page about it, but I really cant discern a definitive answer. So, I was wondering if someone could explain it better, or kinda tell me how Methodist view it. Say someone is saved, Christ comes into their life, they are baptized, etc. Lets say that person starts giving in to sin, it just feeds on itself, and they fall farther and farther from God. Not totally rejection of God, just ignoring him, and that person were to die, what would happen?

I'm a Methodist, but I've got my own thoughts about this.

If you read through the Bible, you'll find so many stories of men and women who were in communion with God. If you read it like that, you know from cover to cover and think about your question, I think you might come away with a wonderful sense that the Lord is slow to anger and full of mercy.
I think we tend to look at this through our own eyes.
I think of so many passage where God is revealed as being really very aware of how hard our lives are. We're weak, we die, we get sick easily, we get hurt, families die, friends die, and we feel alone.
Jesus certainly revealed to us that God is Holy, Perfect but the flip side of the coin is that he reveals God as being aware of our every move, the hairs on our head, and wanting to gather us up in his arms.
I think there is so much that is really positive about how much he loves us, and the warning are there to make sure that we don't drift to far from the pathway.
Sadly, as Jesus said, we are like sheep. We need shepherds. In our world, folks are slow to take that seriously, and think they can do it alone. I think if one is in a fellowship and things do happen to go wrong, one has a better chance of getting through those trials and temptations.
We need shepherds, we need protection and we need to read passages like Romans 8, as well as the warnings in Peter and Hebrews and remember not to get under condemnation, and renew our minds that God wants us to return to him.
Is there a place where you've committed a sin that cannot be forgiven. Sure, there are those difficult passages about no way back ideas, but I think if you come back to God and repent, he's going to forgive you.
How far you can push that forgiveness card, I'm not sure. Like Pastor J Dog say, we cannot know who's the Lords and whose not.
When my Mom died, I was worried, but eventually I accepted, she had her life and she had her choices to make and I hope she chose well.

Like Joshua said, choose this day whom you will serve. You've only got today, if you're an alcoholic, or drug addict etc. So, choose today and if you choose to follow the Lord, I cannot see him turning anyone away.
He did after all say 70x7 ... was that like 149 or infinity, think about it?

 

[Lovely Lane]

I was curious how Methodist view the phrase "once saved, always saved" and I googled it. I came across something on the umc.org page about it, but I really cant discern a definitive answer. So, I was wondering if someone could explain it better, or kinda tell me how Methodist view it. Say someone is saved, Christ comes into their life, they are baptized, etc. Lets say that person starts giving in to sin, it just feeds on itself, and they fall farther and farther from God. Not totally rejection of God, just ignoring him, and that person were to die, what would happen?

How do you explain this phrase "once saved, always saved" ?
I tend to believe no one knows until judgement.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

How do you explain this phrase "once saved, always saved" ?
I tend to believe no one knows until judgement.

How would you explain a passage like 'make your calling and election sure' ?

 

[GraceSeeker]

First, lewis, if you are only quoting isolated verses, you are not taking in the whole counsel of God. When one does, I believe the larger pattern of scripture shows that God asks people to elect to serve God for themselves, not one in which he nominates, elects, and installs them into something apart from their will to cooperate with his purposes. Thus the passage you quote must be read in rather than apart from that context.

Second, other (I think better) translations of the passage make it more clear that we are being called to make a response: "[You] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble." The validity of it is found in what God has done in Christ. The efficacy of it is found in our response to the call. That is we have to confirm God's call, we have to say YES to Jesus.

 

[Lovely Lane]

How would you explain a passage like 'make your calling and election sure' ?

If referring to 2 Peter, I agree with the qualities of the stated Christian character described there.
Plus there is a special interest of transfiguration, partakers of the divine nature or many would call deification.
But still, what we do have and know for certain is hope.

 

[Lovely Lane]

First, lewis, if you are only quoting isolated verses, you are not taking in the whole counsel of God. When one does, I believe the larger pattern of scripture shows that God asks people to elect to serve God for themselves, not one in which he nominates, elects, and installs them into something apart from their will to cooperate with his purposes. Thus the passage you quote must be read in rather than apart from that context.

Second, other (I think better) translations of the passage make it more clear that we are being called to make a response: "[You] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble." The validity of it is found in what God has done in Christ. The efficacy of it is found in our response to the call. That is we have to confirm God's call, we have to say YES to Jesus.

yes, I don't like pulling a few words from scripture leaving behind context and what led up to the authors writings. Such as Peter encouraging believer's during a time of Nero's persecution of Christians intensified and the numerous false teachers and heresy.

The 'calling' and 'election' theme throughout NT is for believer's to stand firm in the Word and follow Jesus. my thought.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I'm not a Calvinist, but I think there is some merit in this idea of election. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but perhaps you can give me the various applications of that idea with in the context of American Methodism?

 

[Nemnar]

Here are my thoughts. This is just my opinion based on what I know so far.

I don't think sin, in of itself, negates salvation. If that were true people would have to constantly ask for salvation, and could end and up in hell if they happened to die after they had sinned but had not regained their salvation. I think salvation has staying power.

I don't think any certain amount of sin, or type (except what is stated as unforgivable) negates salvation either. The bible treats all sin the same. If you break the law in one point, you are guilty of all. A murderer and a liar are both equally guilty.

So based on that, here's how I think it works. Sin puts distance between God and us. As we sin, and get further and further away from God, if we don't ask for forgiveness. I think eventually someone can get so caught up in sin, and be so numb to God that they decide to reject him, to say, I do not want your saving grace anymore. And at that point, that person is no longer saved.

I don't think that God will remove your salvation, and I don't think it just dissolves either. So it would have to be rejected by the person who is saved.

That's my opinion, and I think that it strikes a good balance between different views. It accounts for the role of sin, the will of man, but also the mercy and patience of God.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Nemnar, I think the way you just expressed yourself is adequate for conversation with most people on the subject.


Lewis, of course there is something to this idea of election. It is a biblical term and Methodists except that God does indeed elect us. What we claim is that in Christ this election is offered to all of humankind. That what the first Adam lost, the second Adam redeemed. But then, we each, like the first Adam have to figure out what we are going to do with the gift of life God has, in Christ, blessed each one of us with. And, like the first Adam, we are each free to accpet or reject God, and the future hope we have in Christ. That doesn't make the offering of it to us any less real in our lives, but unless we accept it there is no utility of it to actually effect a salvation that has already been won.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

'....unless we accept it there is no utility of it to actually effect a salvation that has already been won.'

That's a very interesting thought, and thanks to both of you for explaining your understanding from the American Methodist perspective.
I'm not sure that I'd got with either of your views as adequately explaining how grace, faith and works work. I'd try to explain that, but I think it's something that Sunday school teachers are better at.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Lewis, here's my Sunday school version for you:

Jesus loves you, hope you know,
You don't have to make a show
Long as you don't run away
He will hold your hand alway.

 

[WOFFED]

I often wonder if some believers mostly take to heart just a few scripture verses like John 3:16 (For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.) and Romans 10:9 (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.) and yet aren't quite sure what to make of other gospel verses.

Do you think the following verses apply more to a fully committed "follower/disciple" that's held to a higher “saved” benchmark than say a somewhat worldly "believer" that is basically viewed as a loyal church going member and good person by his neighbors?

Matthew 7:13-14 and 18-21

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matthew 19:23-26

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke 9:23

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 10:27

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Revelation 3:15-16

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

I post this because no one has yet quoted specific scripture; which has me wondering if Methodists still believe that the Bible (OT/NT) is the inspired Word of God and is still just as infallible and trustworthy as it was to John and Charles Wesley as referenced below.

His greatest theological achievement was his promotion of what he termed "Christian Perfection", or holiness of heart and life. Wesley held that, in this life, Christians could come to a state in which the love of God, or perfect love, reigned supreme in their hearts. His evangelical theology, especially his understanding of Christian perfection, was firmly grounded in his sacramental theology. He continually insisted on the general use of the means of grace (prayer, scripture, meditation, Eucharist, etc.) as the means by which God sanctifies and transforms the believer.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I post this because no one has yet quoted specific scripture

Really? Did you actually read the above posts? You might want to check out post #3 above -- several passages of scripture are cited. And scripture is directly quoted in post #11.