Question- Please

[Benedicta00]

I don’t want to fight…I do not want to fight… I just want an answer, please.

I just want to know the answer to this because I am confused about this, what is the, if there is any, difference between saying you are saved by grace alone or saying that you are saved by faith alone?

 

[Lotar]

Nope, we mean the same thing.


Why do you always have to post in MY forum? It's MINE, get out, we don't want you here, go away.

Sorry, couldn't resist

I mock because I love

 

[Blackhawk]

I don’t want to fight…I do not want to fight… I just want an answer, please.

I just want to know the answer to this because I am confused about this, what is the, if there is any, difference between saying you are saved by grace alone or saying that you are saved by faith alone?

Yes. If we are saved by faith alone then we are saved because of something we did. We are saved by grace alone because it is God alone who saves. Nothing we do causes us to be saved. We are saved only because God loves us and sent his son to die for us. We are saved only because God is willing to let His son take our place and take the punishment that we deserve. Our faith is what we are saved through but is not what saves us. WE do nothing to earn our salvation. Nothing. This to my knowledge is not a protestant only thing but is also a CAtholic thing. I think where we generally part ways (in this respect) is that protestants believe that we are saved through faith alone and Catholics say that we are saved through faith and works. We both believe that we do not earn our own salvation but God saves us alone. I could be wrong about this but that is how I see the difference in the prot. Catholic discussioon on this topic.

 

[Fiskare]

I don’t want to fight…I do not want to fight… I just want an answer, please.

I just want to know the answer to this because I am confused about this, what is the, if there is any, difference between saying you are saved by grace alone or saying that you are saved by faith alone?

The faith alone/grace alone/good works issue within protestant doctrine is well outlined in this summary of the Augsburg Confession - (Which you can find here)

Article 4 - On Justification (Christian renewal)


We believe, teach and confess that no person anywhere can be forgiven, made righteous or acceptable before God by his or her own inward qualities, outward works or satisfactions. We can only receive forgiveness of sin before God by grace (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 2:11) for Christ's sake, through faith in Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world and for us, for His sake our sin is forgiven and true righteous and eternal life are given to us (Rom. 2:23-28; Rom. 4:5).

Article 5 - The Ministry of the Church [The Office of the Ministry]

We believe, teach and confess that God instituted the office of the ministry for the purpose of bringing the Word and the Sacraments to His people in order that they may come to saving faith (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 11:23-25; 2 Cor. 5:18; Acts 20:28). It is only through these two means that the Holy Spirit works faith where and when He pleases in only those who hear and do not reject the Gospel (John 5:52; Rom. 10:17; 1 Thess. 1:5).
<LI>We also believe, teach and confess that the Holy Spirit does not come to us through our own preparations, imaginations, enthusiasms or works but only through the preached or taught Work of Holy Scripture and Sacraments (John 17:17; John 5:52; Eph 1:17; Titus 3:5).

Article 6 - The Necessity of Good Works


We believe, teach and confess that true Christian faith should produce good works and that we must do good works because God has commanded them, however we should do hem for Christ's sake and never place our trust in them in order to obtain favour before God. Christ says "When you have done all that is commanded of us, say, We are still unworthy servants" (Luke 17:10).

 

[BBAS 64]

I don’t want to fight…I do not want to fight… I just want an answer, please.

I just want to know the answer to this because I am confused about this, what is the, if there is any, difference between saying you are saved by grace alone or saying that you are saved by faith alone?

Shelb5,

I will do my best to answer these questions. I dont think that any one would argue that fact that we are saved by grace. From my point of view the question that faces most christians is ths how do we receive that grace "unmerited favor from God" better explained what is the insrumental cause resulting in grace. As far as I know the RCC belives that the cause is the baptism that is the cause, I do not believe that Rome teaches a purely works based cause. If my understanding of the RCC is correct at worst they belive God is opligated to infere His grace to anyone who is baptised which could be a work preformed by a RCC preist so that in it self may consitute a works based system of grace. But to fully understand the RCC whole system of grace requores much understanding of trent and the presubstion of the RCC of the time. I find that most people who claim to be RC have a very vage understand of these issues but that does not seem to bother them. Here is some of the Scripture I look to to better understand this issue.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It seems clear to me that the cause of the grace is faith.
Now this begs many more questions. But I hope this some what helps.


For His Glory Alone!


BBAS

 

[Benedicta00]

Thanks for the responses, but I think what I am confused about is when I hear sometimes some say we are saved by grace first then we must receive it by faith. Can anyone explain to me what one means when they say this?

 

[eldermike]

Michelle,

Eph 2:5-10 explains it perfectly. Verse 8 says faith is a gift given so we can do what God intended us to do. He intended for us to respond to His Grace (in fact He knew we would) and He gives us a gift to make that possible.

By your question it seems that you are looking for our part to play in a process.

I don't personally like to phrase salvation as something I recieved. It's something I responded too once He gave me the tools. I was born dead and He made me alive, I responded to His Grace with the faith He gave me. As I walk with Him (by faith) He gives me more and more of it.

I hope this helps.
Eldermike

 

[Benedicta00]

First I need to say, I am not trying to provoke any kind of debate with anyone or show anyone any error in this belief.

On another forum, not CF but another, a all Catholic forum where they are not to many Protestants to ask this question to, someone stated this and I am asking Protestants here to explain this because I do not understand what is implied when someone says they are saved by grace first that they received by faith.

What comes first, grace or faith or does it matter because Lotar said the two are the same? That is what I thought that they were the same, grace alone and faith alone but the way the statement was worded, “saved by grace first then we must receive it by faith” suggests the two are not the same so I am confused.

This person seems to me to be saying that the two are not the same. Faith alone and grace alone. Are they saying that they were regenerated first and then by that grace was able to have faith and that is what saves them? Or are they saying that it takes faith first to receive grace that comes to us first?

See, I’m confused because the way it was worded kind of contradicts, if grace saves first but we have to receive it by faith, then faith would come first, right?? I’m asking for help, here.

I think what the person stated is that is what Blackhawk explained. No?

 

[eldermike]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is God's nature.
Faith is a tool.

By Grace you are saved (God), through faith (the tool you are given), and not of yourselves, it's a gift.

So:
Grace = God's nature
Faith = Tool given to you so you can believe something you can't see, touch, taste, smell or prove in any way.
Yourself = responding to God with the gift of faith.
Gift = free, unmerited, not earned.

 

[Fiskare]

First I need to say, I am not trying to provoke any kind of debate with anyone or show anyone any error in this belief.

On another forum, not CF but another, a all Catholic forum where they are not to many Protestants to ask this question to, someone stated this and I am asking Protestants here to explain this because I do not understand what is implied when someone says they are saved by grace first that they received by faith.

What comes first, grace or faith or does it matter because Lotar said the two are the same? That is what I thought that they were the same, grace alone and faith alone but the way the statement was worded, “saved by grace first then we must receive it by faith” suggests the two are not the same so I am confused.

This person seems to me to be saying that the two are not the same. Faith alone and grace alone. Are they saying that they were regenerated first and then by that grace was able to have faith and that is what saves them? Or are they saying that it takes faith first to receive grace that comes to us first?

See, I’m confused because the way it was worded kind of contradicts, if grace saves first but we have to receive it by faith, then faith would come first, right?? I’m asking for help, here.

I think what the person stated is that is what Blackhawk explained. No?

Let me try to help Shelb,

The main soteriological emphasis in Protestantism is basically Augustinian, that is, that no activity on our behalf contributes to our salvation, but rather it is God's activity. Let me explain-

There are basically two pictures in Christian thought that illustrate how salvation occurs.

Picture 1:
Man has fallen out of a boat, as it were, and someone in the boat throws out a lifering, and the drowning swimmer must go and grasp it to come back into the boat. Obviously, the man in peril is representative of humanity and the thrower of the lifering is representative of God.

Picture 2:
A man has fallen off a cliff, and lies there, deceased, unable to to anything at all to bring himself back to life. Completely dead. He can only come back to life if he is resurrected miraculously, and then he leads a new life. Obviously, the man who fell off the cliff represents sinful man and the resurrecting force is God.

The early protestants believed and taught "Picture 2", the Augustinian understanding.

Thus, grace is the mercy God has on the fallen sinner, who is completely dead and unable to help himself, to which God then gives the gift of a new life by giving the dead sinner faith, which he could not have of his own ability anyway. The born again sinner then leads the new life by the faith which has been given by God completely by merciful grace. The new obedience is the life of faith. Saved by grace, through faith, for good works.

Grace is God's undeserved love for us, and faith is the gift He gives us to lead our new life in Christ. We do nothing to contribute to our own salvation except believe, and the new obedience is the manifestation of faith. For example, a cow goes "moo" because it is a cow, it does not go "moo" to become a cow.

I hope that helps.

 

[Benedicta00]

Fiskare,

Yes, thank you.

Eldermike,

That is what I was looking for, the formula, for lack of a better word, of how grace and faith alone save.

So it is then correct to say that they are the same but how one views how each one works is different?

 

[Ken]

I will leave the details of this important teaching to men more capable than myself... but I think I can safely say at the outset that if you look at the 2 main choices or teachings one faces when addressing this subject, it is one of the following:

regeneration precedes faith

or

faith precedes regeneration

Classical Reformed teaching adheres to the former, that is, regeneration preceds saving faith, and this being "born from above", this opening of blinded eyes to actually see the glory of Christ, is all of grace, i.e. sola gratia. Faith, then, follows and is the instrumental cause of salvation, which lays ahold of the already fully secured forensic justification before the Lord. Namely, that man is found righteous totally and completely by virtue of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner, and this, is by sola fide, and is no intermingling of sin stained works combined with faith can hope to save. Of course Rome calls this a "legal fiction", but classical Protestantism considers this justification to be actual, and not fictional at all. I hope this helps, but let me say that reading the following will really help you understand the Reformation position in this subject, esp John Owen...

blessings

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol41/htm/iii.v.ii.htm

http://www.reformed.org/documents/fisher/q0033.html

an entire book by John Owen, which will certainly help to answer your questions...
http://www.graciouscall.org/books/owen/justification/toc.html

http://www.reformed.com/pub/bornagai.htm

 

[Ken]

also:
"Justification is not something that occurs in man (ie contra Rome's doctrine of infused righteousness - Ken's note), nor is it a process. It refers to the legal, judicial and forensic declaration of God. “It is to declare forensically that the demands of the law as a condition of life are fully satisfied with regard to a person, Acts 13:39; Rom. 5:1, 9; 8:30-33; I Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16; 3:11.” The ground of justification is Christ’s sacrificial death and perfect obedience to the law (i.e., “the righteousness of God,” Rom. 3:21). When a man by faith lays hold of Jesus Christ and His merits, God imputes that person’s guilt for sins past, present and future upon Christ on the cross. God also imputes Christ’s perfect righteousness to that sinner. The Father then declares that man righteous or just in the heavenly court. Because Christ has removed the guilt of that man’s sins past, present, and future legally before God, it is as though that man never committed sin. He is white as snow (Isa. 1:18). His record is perfect. Judicially, he is just as righteous and perfect as Jesus Christ. Since Christ’s perfect obedience is imputed to him, he has eternal life because Christ merited it for him....

1. Justification is objective. It takes place outside of the sinner in the heavenly court. Justification does not directly change the believer’s inner life. On the other hand, sanctification is subjective. It takes place in the sinner and renders the sinner more holy over time. 2. Justification is an act of God the Father. God renders a verdict regarding the one who believes in Christ. “It is God who justifies” (Rom. 8:33). Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. “And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit” (Eph. 5:18). 3. Justification is instantaneous. God declares the believing sinner righteous in a moment of time. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (Jn. 5:24; cf. Lk. 18:14; Rom. 5:1). Justification is not a process, nor is it piecemeal. It takes place only once, then it is complete. “There is no such thing as being more and more justified. There are no degrees of acceptance with God. To be justified is to be wholly justified.”A “man is either fully justified, or he is not justified at all.”process. The Christian grows in holiness and more and more conforms to the character of Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit applies God’s word to his heart. “The old sin nature is progressively subdued, but never entirely abolished in this life.” Sanctification is a continuous Sanctification is progressive, imperfect, and not completed until death. 4. Justification removes the guilt of sin and clothes the believer with Christ’s perfect righteousness, thus entitling him to eternal life in God’s own family. Sanctification progressively removes the pollution of sin; subdues the power of sin, and increasingly enables the believer to live in conformity with the word of God. 5. Justification is an act of God obtained by or through faith. “There is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith” (Rom. 3:30). Faith is not the ground or cause of justification but the instrument by which the believer receives justification. Faith is the gift of God which lays hold of and receives what Christ has accomplished. The believer’s salvation and justification are totally a work of God. Sanctification requires faith and flows from Christ’s death and justification, but it is a process in which the justified sinner cooperates and contributes. Sanctification involves obedience to God’s law and good works. In justification there is not one iota of human merit, good works, or lawkeeping involved, except Christ’s perfect righteousness."
http://www.reformed.com/pub/just.htm