Question on the Eucharist...

Carl Emerson

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Does your question amount to asking if the body and blood of Jesus Christ are ubiquitous?

I think 'everpresent' may be a better term.

Our theologies tend to be limited by chronology - "this can't be - because that hasn't happened" doesn't alway apply to heavenly realities that are timeless.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I think 'everpresent' may be a better term.

Our theologies tend to be limited by chronology - "this can't be - because that hasn't happened" doesn't alway apply to heavenly realities that are timeless.
I may be mistaken, and I'll leave it to the Lutherans here to correct if I am incorrect, but I believe that Lutherans teach that the body and the blood of Jesus Christ are ubiquitous.
 
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Carl Emerson

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John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

What is " life"? It is His Holy Spirit. His Spirit regenerates us and gives us everlasting life. The Eucharist is symbolic for His indwelling Spirit in the believer which He sent after His ascension. Blessings

Yes, yet salvation is through Christ alone and the OT believers were saved by faith in Him ratified through the Cross.

Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
 
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Bob Crowley

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I think the answer to the question relies on just who Christ is, namely God in the flesh.

In declaring at the Last Supper than "this is my body" and "this is my blood", He was infusing HIs body and blood in the bread and wine right there and then. He was also setting the scene for every Eucharist in history.

When a priest asks the Holy Spirit to come down upon the gifts and make them holy, the same thing is happening. Until then they are just wafers and bottles of wine sitting in the cupboard.

This is the same God-Man who declared "I and the Father are one" and "No one goes to the Father but by me".

Christ's pre- and post- resurrection bodies don't come into it as far as I'm aware, because Christ was God in the flesh.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi there,

Just pondering on a matter that is worthy of discussion.

I understand that a lamb offered as a sacrifice for sin, under the Law, was then consumed.

The partaking in the body and blood of Jesus was first shared with Jesus by the disciples before His sacrificial death on the Cross.

Am I right then to conclude then, that this blood and body that the disciples consumed as they partook of the bread and wine, were of His eternal resurrected body and not His pre-resurrection body ?

Or do you consider them one in the same ?

I think there is a gem of faith building revelation to be had as one ponders on this.

Your thoughts most welcome.

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Can we please refrain from debating the doctrine of the real presence on this thread and focus on the question I have raised thanks.

One and the same. Jesus is Jesus.

The Mystery of His Supper is not explained to us. How can bread be His flesh and wine His blood? Yet it is. It was then, and it is now. The same Jesus who said "This is My body" to those in the upper room, is the same Jesus who gives us His flesh now. It was Him then, it is Him now. He gave Himself to them then, He gives Himself to us now. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

How can this be, how does this "work"? God alone knows. But His word is faithful and He is true. It is His body and it is His blood--He gives us the sacred and precious gift of Himself. His flesh is the real bread of life, the true manna from heaven; and His blood is real drink. And so He gives us eternal life, even now, right now.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Carl Emerson

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I think a question that begs is that Abraham being the Father of all who have faith, through participation in the eucharist would have been indwelled by Christ.

Yet there is compelling scripture to suggest the gift of Christ's Spirit within was specifically New Covenant.

Maybe his indwelling was for the moment as Jesus was identified by JB as being the on on whom the Spirit would come upon and remain.
 
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Gary K

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John 6, contrary to what you argue as is universally agreed by all Church Fathers and all traditional churches including the Lutherans, Anglicans, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, the latter three of which have never had anything to do with the Roman Catholics.

I would also note that the traditional interpretation of John 6 is not incompatible with the (nonetheless erroneous) Memorialist interpretation of Baptists, Adventists and many Evangelicals, so I am baffled as to why Adventists insist on a counter-traditional interpretation of it.
We don't "insist" on it. It's the Bible that does.

Luke 22: 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 ¶ And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Was Jesus practicing cannibalism? Do we really practice cannabilism? It's one of the most heinous crimes there is.
 
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The Liturgist

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We don't "insist" on it. It's the Bible that does

No it doesn’t. We read the same Bible you do, and our doctrine of the Eucharist is based directly on Scripture. Now, I understand you believe your doctrine is also scriptural, but clearly an issue exists insofar as Lutherans, Anglicans, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have arrived at opposing interpretations of Scripture despite having either rejected, in the case of Lutherans, Anglicans and other liturgical Protestants, or never having been subject to, in the case of the various Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches, the caprices of Roman Catholicism.

Indeed as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch and I often discuss, the Confessional Lutheran position on the Eucharist, arrived at independently by Martin Luther based on his own analysis of scripture, happens to correspond with the Orthodox doctrine in a number of ways, and is much closer to the Orthodox position than it is to the Roman Catholic.

This in turn takes us directly to my primary issue with Adventist theology, that is that so much of it is predicated upon what I consider a false dichotomy between Catholics and Restorationist Protestants, with the SDA being regarded as a uniquely enlightened leader of Protestantism owing to the writings of Ellen G White which are regarded as infallible inspired prophecy, which in turn themselves stress what I regard, from my detailed study of ecclesiastical history, as a considered opinion, a false dichotomy between an evil Roman Catholic empire and a virtuous Adventist rebellion, which is then turned into an epic cosmological good vs. evil narrative, which I think is terribly uncharitable to Roman Catholics, especially to the conservative Traditional Catholics who are suffering so much under Pope Francis, being denied worship according to their customs and otherwise suffering from very unpleasant treatment.
 
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o_mlly

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I believe the Cross was a timeless event and pre or post cross is of no issue to God being outside of time.
At Eucharist, we experience a moment in eternity: Christ's sacrifice, once and for all, is made present.

In reflecting on the Cana miracle, Chrysostom and Augustine note that in eternity the water is wine as all moments, past and future, in eternity are present.

John Chrysostom (Homily 22 on John's Gospel) says, "But now to show that it is He who transmutes water in the vine plants, and who converts the rain by its passage through the root into wine, He effected that in a moment at the wedding which in the plant is long in doing."

In De Trinitate, Augustine says that miracles are the acceleration of events that occur in nature over time. Significantly, he begins his explanation by saying that God draws the rainwater through the roots to the branches of the vine and makes wine. Christ's changing of the water into wine at Cana is the same process done with "unusual speed" (De Trin. III, 5).

In his book, The Life of Christ, Fulton J. Sheen reflects on how in the natural order, the hierarchy of living things transforms the lower into higher forms in order that the lower might share life more abundantly. In the Eucharist, the bread and wine that the living Christ consumed, and in consuming transformed them into Himself, is made present to us as His body, blood, soul and divinity for us to consume that we might have life everlasting.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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At Eucharist, we experience a moment in eternity: Christ's sacrifice, once and for all, is made present.

In reflecting on the Cana miracle, Chrysostom and Augustine note that in eternity the water is wine as all moments, past and future, in eternity are present.

John Chrysostom (Homily 22 on John's Gospel) says, "But now to show that it is He who transmutes water in the vine plants, and who converts the rain by its passage through the root into wine, He effected that in a moment at the wedding which in the plant is long in doing."

In De Trinitate, Augustine says that miracles are the acceleration of events that occur in nature over time. Significantly, he begins his explanation by saying that God draws the rainwater through the roots to the branches of the vine and makes wine. Christ's changing of the water into wine at Cana is the same process done with "unusual speed" (De Trin. III, 5).

In his book, The Life of Christ, Fulton J. Sheen reflects on how in the natural order, the hierarchy of living things transforms the lower into higher forms in order that the lower might share life more abundantly. In the Eucharist, the bread and wine that the living Christ consumed, and in consuming transformed them into Himself, is made present to us as His body, blood, soul and divinity for us to consume that we might have life everlasting.
Dr. Arthur Just describes it as "transcending both time and space; the alter is where heaven and earth come together at the consecration of the Eucharist. Christ is Emanual; "God with us". as Pastor chants in the Preface; this is the one for All Saints Day which fully embraces the idea of the the Communion of the Saints. The Church is eternal and timeless indeed as Pastor Just stated:

1707862624944.png
 
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concretecamper

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Although a private Revelation, this hits the nail on the head.

 
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RileyG

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It truly is his body and truly is his blood. That’s all I’m concerned about. I know I receive the resurrected Christ when I receive him in the Eucharist.

You have a great question. Quite frankly, I’m not sure how to answer it. I think it’s important to remember that God exists outside of space and time and Holy Communion is ultimately a holy mystery.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes, we truly partake of His resurrected body - and therefore that fact that He offered it before He died is of no consequence.

It seems that He also offered it to Abraham before He was born !!!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Yes, we truly partake of His resurrected body - and therefore that fact that He offered it before He died is of no consequence.

It seems that He also offered it to Abraham before He was born !!!
It truly is his body and truly is his blood. That’s all I’m concerned about. I know I receive the resurrected Christ when I receive him in the Eucharist.

You have a great question. Quite frankly, I’m not sure how to answer it. I think it’s important to remember that God exists outside of space and time and Holy Communion is ultimately a holy mystery.
I think the answer is that we receive both His crucified body and blood, and His risin body and blood; after all it is His crucified body that was raised from the dead; not a different body. Our Lord still has both natures, human and divine.; the same body born of Mary.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, we truly partake of His resurrected body - and therefore that fact that He offered it before He died is of no consequence.

It seems that He also offered it to Abraham before He was born !!!

Indeed, which he can do, being God. Consider that God exists outside of space and time, having created both through the person of the Logos, who became incarnate as our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, and the humanity of Jesus Christ has access to this eternal characteristic of God, owing to the Incarnation, since this is also a vital means by which our own access to everlasting life will be accomplished.

In addition, St. Peter declares us partakers of the Divine Nature, and so clearly we are accessing both the humanity and divinity of our Lord in the Eucharist.

That said, some doctrinally strong theologians see the sacrificial meal presided over by Melchizedek to be a type of the Eucharist, with Melchizedek being a type of Christ, rather than necessarily being Christ Himself, but we don’t know; conversely, in addition to the sacrifice with Melchizedek, some regard the shewbread and drink offerings in the Tabernacle and later the first and second Temple as being Eucharistic or at the very least types of the Eucharist. I tend to lean towards the latter interpretation, as I see our Lord wanting to create the maximum preparedness for the Eucharist and for Baptism.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think the answer is that we receive both His crucified body and blood, and His risin body and blood; after all it is His crucified body that was raised from the dead; not a different body. Our Lord still has both natures, human and divine.; the same body born of Mary.

Indeed so, this is the Orthodox faith.
 
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Gary K

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No it doesn’t. We read the same Bible you do, and our doctrine of the Eucharist is based directly on Scripture. Now, I understand you believe your doctrine is also scriptural, but clearly an issue exists insofar as Lutherans, Anglicans, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have arrived at opposing interpretations of Scripture despite having either rejected, in the case of Lutherans, Anglicans and other liturgical Protestants, or never having been subject to, in the case of the various Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches, the caprices of Roman Catholicism.

Indeed as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch and I often discuss, the Confessional Lutheran position on the Eucharist, arrived at independently by Martin Luther based on his own analysis of scripture, happens to correspond with the Orthodox doctrine in a number of ways, and is much closer to the Orthodox position than it is to the Roman Catholic.

This in turn takes us directly to my primary issue with Adventist theology, that is that so much of it is predicated upon what I consider a false dichotomy between Catholics and Restorationist Protestants, with the SDA being regarded as a uniquely enlightened leader of Protestantism owing to the writings of Ellen G White which are regarded as infallible inspired prophecy, which in turn themselves stress what I regard, from my detailed study of ecclesiastical history, as a considered opinion, a false dichotomy between an evil Roman Catholic empire and a virtuous Adventist rebellion, which is then turned into an epic cosmological good vs. evil narrative, which I think is terribly uncharitable to Roman Catholics, especially to the conservative Traditional Catholics who are suffering so much under Pope Francis, being denied worship according to their customs and otherwise suffering from very unpleasant treatment.
It's like I said nothing at all. You wouldn't even address my point about cannibilism. Jesus ate His own flesh and drank His own blood? That is weird beyond belief.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Indeed so, this is the Orthodox faith.

He bears the marks of His suffering forever and is risen in the flesh, yet transformed being the first born of an entirely new eternal creation.

In this I am inclined to think the Shroud is genuine evidencing the transition between the creations.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It's like I said nothing at all. You wouldn't even address my point about cannibilism. Jesus ate His own flesh and drank His own blood? That is weird beyond belief.

He was partaking of His resurrected eternal body and blood. Cannibalism is a different matter altogether. Any sacrament can be misrepresented - have you not heard - the Christians are drowning their believers !!!
 
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