Question on Sin and Salvation.

[Intrepid99]

I am a Christian but my question is,
Sin is considered to be hereditary. Adam sinned therefore we are born as sinners. But, Christ died for us. In that case, when my dad and mom accepts Christ, why cant that be hereditary?
When I was born, sin was involuntarily infused in me. I did not ask for it. Similarity, why cant salvation be infused in that manner.

 

[Ziwei]

Romans 5:12 indicates that sin entered the world through Adam.(actually Eve might be more accurate). Sin should not be considered hereditary. Adam brought sin into the world, and because sin can grow with Satan's help, sin spread, and now everyone can be affected by it. See it as almost like dropping food coloring into water. The world started perfectly clean, but became defiled.

Hope it answers your question!

 

[Intrepid99]

Romans 5:12 indicates that sin entered the world through Adam

Dosent that mean its hereditary?

actually Eve might be more accurate

I dont think so. It is clearly given in bible and we cannot mend it for own convience. Its inspired by God therefore, it is flawless. Although there are few copy editors mistakes. It cannot as huge as change of names of Eve and Adam. Well, that is my opinion. Lets stay away from that topic in this thread.

. Sin should not be considered hereditary

Why not? Every preacher says that sin is hereditry. so does the bible.

. Adam brought sin into the world, and because sin can grow with Satan's help, sin spread, and now everyone can be affected by it. See it as almost like dropping food coloring into water. The world started perfectly clean, but became defiled.

I agree with this.

Hope it answers your question!

Evidently not.

 

[IKTCA]

Brother Intrepid,

I bow my head before you since you do not follow the ways of your peers and study the words of God. Since I received Jesus when I was 37, I cannot but bow to you. I know the Lord will answer your bible questions diligently.

I would like to show you that some words in the bible "indicate" sins may not be hereditary.

What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, "The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teech are set on edge"? As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.........[Ezekiel 18:2 and after]

The same teaching is repeated in Jeremiah 31:29 and after. God says that son's teeth will not become sour because his father ate sour grape.

Regarding Romans 5:12, can we see that as sin entered the world through one man {but those who choose the sin will die}? (curly brackets are my insert).

In the paragraph starting with Ezekiel 3:16, God says an individual will live if he turns from evil ways. This leads me to believe that the choice is on individual person.

By the way, my understanding on this subject is still inadequate. As your bible study progresses, please share with me what you learned. I thank you in advance, my friend.

Rupert

 

[Intrepid99]

Dear iktca,
Thank you for the way you addressed me. I dont know how God would use me but, there is not need to bow to one another. We all got to bow to Jesus.

Anyway,
Look at Romans 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (KJV)

I think it is hereditry. Look at the excerpt that addresses this specific topic.

Question: "Did we all inherit sin from Adam and Eve?"
Answer: Yes, all people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically Adam. Romans 5:12 speaks to this, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Romans 5:19a declares further, “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners…” Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:26-27). As a result, all human beings are also in the image and likeness of God (Gen 9:6). However, we are also in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3). When Adam fell into sin, that resulted in every one of his descendants also being “infected” with sin (Psa 51:5). The fact that we are born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: Sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom 7:24-25a).

Taken from, www.gotquestions.org

Now, I think it is safe to say that sin is inherited. But, I would like to know why cant it be the same thing with salvation.

 

[ukok]

Because we are individual. Blanket Salvation for all would do nothing to separate those who lived for Jesus and those who don't

If we were assured of a place in heaven, then there would be nothing that we could do that would hinder that....we could commit any sin whatsoever and still be assured of Salvation. Living in Christ isn't that simple, we are culpable for the way that we live our live's while here on earth, for the sinfulness that we indulge within our selves, of our own free will.

 

[keliezimmer]

Dear Intrepid,

I'll try to explain your question as I understand it in 'laymen's' terms;

Sin is hereditary because it is human nature. Why is it human nature? Because God gave all human beings free will. Humans use free will for many things; some use it to do good and help his/her neighbor and to serve God, others use it selfishly and only to serve themselves. There are ALWAYS times in our lives when we use free will one way or the other. We choose right, or we choose wrong. Even from the time you were a little child, you chose to share your toys or snatch them away from others. Thus, you are sinning, because you chose to hurt someone else and take for yourself. Now, we can't expect a little child to know the difference and that is why parent's discipline their children, to teach them right from wrong. If you had not inherited sin as a natural human characteristic you would be like the angels, because angel's do not have free will. They must obey and do as they are commanded. But humans are free to make their own choices, and when those choices are wrong there are usually consequences. Hopefully, a person will only have to suffer the consequences of their actions a few times before they learn not to make the same mistakes again. God knew that sin was human nature as soon as he made us. He realized that people would use their free will to do good things, as he intended, and to do bad things. That is why he sent Jesus to die for us and to wash away our sins. Because he knew that alone, we would ALWAYS fall short of God's purpose for our lives.

I hope that helps a little.

 

[Endure2]

being born sinners is hereditary though all people regardless of whether or not their parents were saved, becuase when you are born again, your sinful flesh remains.
your spirit is born again, but your mind is not, and your flesh is not.
and out of your flesh comes children. your flesh is never redeemed on this earth. even as born again christian we still have us a sinful part, the flesh, and becuase we are still in the flesh, we reproduce people into sin.

i understand that the bible says a childs teeth will no longer be set on edge becuase his father ate sour grapes, thats saying if a man sins, no longer will his entire familiy die for those sins, becuase at one time they did.

its speaking of Gods judgement of sin not being transfered down generations.

but it has nothing to do with the fact that sin runs in the blood line and we will continue to produce people who are have a sin nature. and we all must be born again for ourselves, becuase we are all born in sin.
we dont BECOME sinners, the day we sin for the first time.
like david said, WE ARE SHAPEN IN INIQUITY.
and by one man, adam, we were all made sinners.

 

[cyberwood]

Amen Endure!

Often we believe that we are essentially good inside. We make mistakes because we are not perfect, but they are just honest mistakes. We have lost much of our childhood innocence, but if we are diligent, we can regain this. Intrepid, as you recognize, this is a lie.

When I was born, sin was involuntarily infused in me.

As Endure said well, we are born with a very nature that is self-seeking and does not know the Lord. We are not children of the Lord, and He is not our Father. This is the inheritance, and as you are seeing and I am seeing, the concept of 'sin' is not so much doing something wrong as it is the depths at which we love to do wrong. We desire passionately to do the very things that in our mind we know to be false / lies / wrongs / unloving / etc.

However, it was not involuntary. Paul describes Adam's transgression as a type for all people, and so Adam's death came to all people "because all sinned" (12). The first question that comes to my mind is 'how could all haved sinned when only adam (Eve of course is implicated) was the one sinning?' I can certainly recognize the fact that I sinned in my life, but to have sinned in the Garden of Eden - I wasn't even there! How could my condemnation have been spelled out then, when I wasn't even born?

But I begin to see that it is because Adam is typical of humanity - that is, he is the type head of all people. And so when he willingly fell, all willingly fell with him. In our culture especially, the concept of all people as one is completely foreign, but the Bible again and again speaks of people's participation in actions and deeds (the Cross is the ultimate example - all people crucified Christ, Christ's people have died with Him, and also are raised with Him - in the very next chapter 6 of romans ). So Adam's fall is indicative of our active participation in the fall. We testify to this by our very nature, as we at one point or another actively push the Lord's ways from our ways.

"But the gift is not like the trespass" Praise God for this!

By Adam's one act of sin, all sinned, and all died in sin. But by Christ's "one act of righteousness" (18) is now justification for all of His people! As deep as sin goes, deeper is the gift. As far reaching as sin goes, further is the gift. And so now we have been brought to fellowship with the living Lord, who now calls us 'sons' and 'daughters', even as He calls Jesus 'son', and we call Him 'Father' because He has declared this before the whole world. Man, that's just sooo powerful to me.

So, we are all born with sin. This is infused from the beginning. We participated in Adam's sin, by our union with the type head of fallen humanity, so it is not involuntarily.

Now, accepting Christ as Savior and believing in Him for the gift of salvation is heriditary, not according to the flesh, but according to the promise (as Endure stated). That is, the children of God are children according to the Spirit. These are not children of birth in the flesh, but of rebirth in the Spirit. These that are united to Christ (as the type head of the new humanity, reconciled to our God) die with Christ and then live with Him and are worthy to be called children of the Living God according to the promise, because they have been declared in Christ and by the Holy Spirit to be His children.

It makes sense too why one couldn't be born a Christian - if natural birth declared salvation (Christianity), then the declaration would no longer be by the sovereign will of the Lord, but by the fallen will of the flesh. And that's also why our Lord says, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated", even though Esau deserved to be given Abraham's promise (passed to Isaac), since the physical human tradition is to pass the birthright to the oldest son. The promise is made, not by people, but by the living Lord. He makes the wise foolish, and the strong weak, so that all will know who it is that brings life.

Intrepid, I'm so glad you asked this - I too have been working this out along with you (sincerely desiring His ways, and not my ways). May we continue to seek our Lord in all of His Truth and wisdom, and live for Him.

-Chris

 

[Intrepid99]

Dear Intrepid,

I'll try to explain your question as I understand it in 'laymen's' terms;

Sin is hereditary because it is human nature. Why is it human nature? Because God gave all human beings free will. Humans use free will for many things; some use it to do good and help his/her neighbor and to serve God, others use it selfishly and only to serve themselves. There are ALWAYS times in our lives when we use free will one way or the other. We choose right, or we choose wrong. Even from the time you were a little child, you chose to share your toys or snatch them away from others. Thus, you are sinning, because you chose to hurt someone else and take for yourself. Now, we can't expect a little child to know the difference and that is why parent's discipline their children, to teach them right from wrong. If you had not inherited sin as a natural human characteristic you would be like the angels, because angel's do not have free will. They must obey and do as they are commanded. But humans are free to make their own choices, and when those choices are wrong there are usually consequences. Hopefully, a person will only have to suffer the consequences of their actions a few times before they learn not to make the same mistakes again. God knew that sin was human nature as soon as he made us. He realized that people would use their free will to do good things, as he intended, and to do bad things. That is why he sent Jesus to die for us and to wash away our sins. Because he knew that alone, we would ALWAYS fall short of God's purpose for our lives.

I hope that helps a little.

Awesome!! Thank you. It answers my question.
Does that mean that when are raised from death, and from the judgement day onwards, we lose our freewill?
Oh no, It cant be, I love to have two donuts per day in heaven, hope God dosent say, "One per angel"

 

[Intrepid99]

being born sinners is hereditary though all people regardless of whether or not their parents were saved, becuase when you are born again, your sinful flesh remains.
your spirit is born again, but your mind is not, and your flesh is not.
and out of your flesh comes children. your flesh is never redeemed on this earth. even as born again christian we still have us a sinful part, the flesh, and becuase we are still in the flesh, we reproduce people into sin.

i understand that the bible says a childs teeth will no longer be set on edge becuase his father ate sour grapes, thats saying if a man sins, no longer will his entire familiy die for those sins, becuase at one time they did.

its speaking of Gods judgement of sin not being transfered down generations.

but it has nothing to do with the fact that sin runs in the blood line and we will continue to produce people who are have a sin nature. and we all must be born again for ourselves, becuase we are all born in sin.
we dont BECOME sinners, the day we sin for the first time.
like david said, WE ARE SHAPEN IN INIQUITY.
and by one man, adam, we were all made sinners.

I always had doubt about that. I mean childs teeth ache...... with fathers wine. I really did not understand, it seemed like bible contradicted this verse to the other verses about sin. Finally, I got the answer. Thank you.

 

[Intrepid99]

Amen Endure!

Often we believe that we are essentially good inside. We make mistakes because we are not perfect, but they are just honest mistakes. We have lost much of our childhood innocence, but if we are diligent, we can regain this. Intrepid, as you recognize, this is a lie.


As Endure said well, we are born with a very nature that is self-seeking and does not know the Lord. We are not children of the Lord, and He is not our Father. This is the inheritance, and as you are seeing and I am seeing, the concept of 'sin' is not so much doing something wrong as it is the depths at which we love to do wrong. We desire passionately to do the very things that in our mind we know to be false / lies / wrongs / unloving / etc.

However, it was not involuntary. Paul describes Adam's transgression as a type for all people, and so Adam's death came to all people "because all sinned" (12). The first question that comes to my mind is 'how could all haved sinned when only adam (Eve of course is implicated) was the one sinning?' I can certainly recognize the fact that I sinned in my life, but to have sinned in the Garden of Eden - I wasn't even there! How could my condemnation have been spelled out then, when I wasn't even born?

But I begin to see that it is because Adam is typical of humanity - that is, he is the type head of all people. And so when he willingly fell, all willingly fell with him. In our culture especially, the concept of all people as one is completely foreign, but the Bible again and again speaks of people's participation in actions and deeds (the Cross is the ultimate example - all people crucified Christ, Christ's people have died with Him, and also are raised with Him - in the very next chapter 6 of romans ). So Adam's fall is indicative of our active participation in the fall. We testify to this by our very nature, as we at one point or another actively push the Lord's ways from our ways.

"But the gift is not like the trespass" Praise God for this!

By Adam's one act of sin, all sinned, and all died in sin. But by Christ's "one act of righteousness" (18) is now justification for all of His people! As deep as sin goes, deeper is the gift. As far reaching as sin goes, further is the gift. And so now we have been brought to fellowship with the living Lord, who now calls us 'sons' and 'daughters', even as He calls Jesus 'son', and we call Him 'Father' because He has declared this before the whole world. Man, that's just sooo powerful to me.

So, we are all born with sin. This is infused from the beginning. We participated in Adam's sin, by our union with the type head of fallen humanity, so it is not involuntarily.

Now, accepting Christ as Savior and believing in Him for the gift of salvation is heriditary, not according to the flesh, but according to the promise (as Endure stated). That is, the children of God are children according to the Spirit. These are not children of birth in the flesh, but of rebirth in the Spirit. These that are united to Christ (as the type head of the new humanity, reconciled to our God) die with Christ and then live with Him and are worthy to be called children of the Living God according to the promise, because they have been declared in Christ and by the Holy Spirit to be His children.

It makes sense too why one couldn't be born a Christian - if natural birth declared salvation (Christianity), then the declaration would no longer be by the sovereign will of the Lord, but by the fallen will of the flesh. And that's also why our Lord says, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated", even though Esau deserved to be given Abraham's promise (passed to Isaac), since the physical human tradition is to pass the birthright to the oldest son. The promise is made, not by people, but by the living Lord. He makes the wise foolish, and the strong weak, so that all will know who it is that brings life.

Intrepid, I'm so glad you asked this - I too have been working this out along with you (sincerely desiring His ways, and not my ways). May we continue to seek our Lord in all of His Truth and wisdom, and live for Him.

-Chris

Guess you have spend a LOT of time and effort on this. Thank you brother. But, I will save this for tommorow. Its time for me to slumber
And I have to pay attention while I read.
Goodnight.