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Question on Purgatory

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christian-only

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I have a question on purgatory. Below is a passage from Tertullian's Treatise on the Soul, chapter XXXV, http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-03/anf03-22.htm#P2910_1021299, in which he is refuting a reincarnation theory that has as it's basis a twisted allegorical interpretation of Matthew 5:25-26. Now, the reincarnation theory was that the body is the prison mentioned, and the soul is sent to the body to suffer when it sins, thus a person may be reincarnated over and over if their soul continues to sin everytime they finally leave the body. Tertullian in refuting this also explains the passage allegorically, but not with assurety, because he says "Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term adversary to the devil..." This passage marks the accidental creation of the doctrine of purgatory, although he uses the word hell, and my question is "what does that means to Catholics who believe in this doctrine?" the validity of the doctrine of purgatory and the belief that purgatory is not the same as hell. Also, what do you make of the fact that he doesn't say any masses will get them out but that they get out at the resurrection?

-----begin quote------
To this effect does he tamper with the whole of that allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense. Thus our "adversary" (therein mentioned) is the heathen man, who is walking with us along the same road of life which is common to him and ourselves. Now "we must needs go out of the world," if it be not allowed us to have conversation with them. He bids us, therefore, show a kindly disposition to such a man. "Love your enemies," says He, "pray for them that curse you," lest such a man in any transaction of business be irritated by any unjust conduct of yours, and "deliver thee to the judge" of his own (nation), and you be thrown into prison, and be detained in its close and narrow cell until you have liquidated all your debt against him. Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term "adversary" to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him," to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as "the accuser of the brethren," or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this?
-----end quote------
 

ProCommunioneFacior

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Could you please try to explain a little more what your question is. "what does that mean to Catholics that believe in this doctine?" Could you please explain what you mean by that. Are you talking about the scripture that is provided or the passage from Tertullian?
 
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ProCommunioneFacior

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Regarding the usage of term "prison of hell', if that is a correct translation, I would guess that the term purgatory has not caught on yet, and thus that would be his way of explaining purgatory.

Also I am not sure what he is talking about in regards to the Resurrection, is he talking about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ three days after his crucifixion? Is he talking about the Second Coming of Christ?

I am not sure what the usage of his terms are.
 
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ProCommunioneFacior

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Like I said I am not sure what he means by resurrection, but your assertion that they get out at the resurrection is not the same as what I read. This is what I read:

and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection

He says in the period before, not during the resurrection. Additionally, he says that the delinquencies need to be paid off, he does not say how they will be paid off.
 
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Skripper

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proud2bcatholic said:
Like I said I am not sure what he means by resurrection, but your assertion that they get out at the resurrection is not the same as what I read. This is what I read:

and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection

He says in the period before, not during the resurrection. Additionally, he says that the delinquencies need to be paid off, he does not say how they will be paid off.
That's the way I read it, too, "before" the resurrection, not "at", as the OP states. I'm taking "the resurrection" to be the bodily resurrection of the elect, at the Second coming. A point at which the Church teaches that purgatory will no longer exist.

Also, nothing can (or should) be read into the absence of any mention of the benefit of Masses for the souls experiencing purgation since that was not the topic of the passage quoted. It does not appear that the intent of the passage was to be either an exposition of or attempt to define or explain the doctrine, or even its aspects. It was simply an allusion to it, not an apologia for it. Anyway, that's my take, for what it's worth.
 
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Skripper

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Defens0rFidei said:
The entire OP confuses me. What the heck is the point?
Near as I can tell, there are at least three implied points:

1. The doctrine was not divinely revealed at all but rather is a "made up" doctrine of men and, therefore, can be disregarded.

2. It was all just a whacky serendipitous "accident" anyway.

3. If either (1) or (2) are true ... then one can feel secure and justified in not believing the doctrine .. and feel secure in the easy, painless, no- personal responsibility-no-personal accountability-way-to-heaven :rolleyes:
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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Skripper said:
Near as I can tell, there are at least three implied points:

1. The doctrine was not divinely revealed at all but rather is a "made up" doctrine of men and, therefore, can be disregarded.

2. It was all just a whacky serendipitous "accident" anyway.

3. If either (1) or (2) are true ... then one can feel secure and justified in not believing the doctrine .. and feel secure in the easy, painless, no- personal responsibility-no-personal accountability-way-to-heaven :rolleyes:

Oh ok, thanks.

I guess Jesus was wrong about that whole "guide you into all truth" thing then... :scratch:
 
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Skripper

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Defens0rFidei said:
Oh ok, thanks.

I guess Jesus was wrong about that whole "guide you into all truth" thing then... :scratch:
Yeah, and He left it all up to each individual, to be personally led by the Holy Spirit to correct Christian doctrine ... you yourself are the highest authority when it comes to determining authentic, true Christian doctrine ... get with the program! :D
 
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geocajun

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Skripper said:
Yeah, and He left it all up to each individual, to be personally led by the Holy Spirit to correct Christian doctrine ... you yourself are the highest authority when it comes to determining authentic, true Christian doctrine ... get with the program! :D

Dave, that confirms my suspicions. I am right about everything! ^_^
 
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myrna

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I posted this before but I think it is worth repeating and something to consider.
We are all sinners and the bible says a just man falls 7 times a day.
The bible also says nothing defieled can enter heaven.
Therefore we can assume that most of us will die with some minor sins on our soul no matter how hard we try not to offend.
Purgatory is a place to purify us and make us ready to enter and see the Beautific Vision of God.
 
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Michelina

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Dear Christian-Only,

Here is the teaching of the Catholic Church on Purgatory:

from THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (#1030 - 1032)

The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the condemned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire (Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.)


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." (2 Macc 12:46.) From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we oubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.


If you wish to discuss this, we would be glad to elaborate on it. Your quotation from Tertullian and the imaginative way in which you interpret it are not really germane to what we actually believe about purgatory.
 
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