Question on Predestination

[AndOne]

Hey Reformationists out there - and I consider myself one - but just a baby in the doctrine!

I have a question - isn't there a mystery to predestination? As in: although we were predestined before time to receive salvation - it still doesn't change the fact that we had to exert some kind of freewill to become believers. In other words God choose us in his soveriegnty but our conversion came in response to the calling of the Holy Spirit. That is my current understanding of the doctrine - am I off base with this - is so can someone set me straight?

 

[Captain_Scott]

that is how i udnerstand it as well...it makes sence.

i find that it depends on your point of veiw. If your looking at it from a human veiw then yes we do have free will, but from Gods point of veiw (the only veiw that matters) we have no free will...

 

[rmwilliamsll]

the easiest way to get a handle on the ideas is to look at the ordo salutis:


election
....predestination
universal gospel call
inward call
regeneration
faith
....repentance
....quickening
justification
....declaration of righteousness
....removal of guilt and penalty for sin
sanctification
glorification


see: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/ordosalutis.html

for this discussion the crucial element is the temporal relationship of faith to regeneration---which is best defined as God replacing man's natural heart of stone with a heart of flesh

God regenerates the newborn Christian and the first fruit is the inward recognization of God as benevolent Father which is a crucial element of faith.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

We always have the free will to do as we please. Before regeneration, we don't love the light. Like others, we are creatures of wrath. See Ephesians 2:1-10 for a good description. God regenerates His elect, and changes our hearts of stone for hearts of flesh (figuratively) and changes our nature to love Him. Our desire is now to accept Him of our own free will. If God didn't make this change in us, it would be contrary to our nature to choose to follow Him, so there will never be a person who tried desperately to be saved, but couldn't because he wasn't of the elect.

Therefore, it is always our choice, and yet through God's correction of our nature, He controls our choice to follow Him. And it's fair. God doesn't need to harden those not of the elect, they're hearts are hard enough already and they are believing as they will and doing what they want... of their own free will.

I hope this helps!

 

[wsgm]

At least while we are on this earth, we cannot fully comprehend the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Deut 29:29 says, "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." We have to trust that the Bible is true, even if we cannot understand how all of it fits together. We cannot fully comprehend how the Trinity works, but we can believe that it is true and understand some things about it. The relationship between God's sovereignty and man's freedom and responsibility is similar. We are responsible for accepting and understanding what the Bible teaches, but we cannot fully comprehend how it works.
The above posts do a pretty good job of summarizing what we can understand.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hey Reformationists out there - and I consider myself one - but just a baby in the doctrine!

I have a question - isn't there a mystery to predestination? As in: although we were predestined before time to receive salvation - it still doesn't change the fact that we had to exert some kind of freewill to become believers. In other words God choose us in his soveriegnty but our conversion came in response to the calling of the Holy Spirit. That is my current understanding of the doctrine - am I off base with this - is so can someone set me straight?

There certaily is much mystery in predestination , even John Calvin warned of the dangers of trying to get beyond what is written , for there is much we might like to know , but God has not told us.

Let us be content with what God has revealed and to use these precious truths to stir each other up to spiritual work and praise !!

 

[SeRapH&CheRi]

Like Behe's Boy, I am fairly new to the reformed doctrines and in truth, my head feels like it's going to explode with trying to comprehend the ordo salutis. A good friend of mine is a Calvinist who attends Westminster Seminary and does a great job in explaining the reformed doctrine to me. The whole concept of free will vs. predestination is something that I go back and forth with. In fact, I really struggle with the whole concept of election and the fact that God chooses those to come to faith in Him. I grew up with the whole Armenian (sp?) frame of thought, but am now currently attending a PCA church. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if God loves all, then how is it that He "elects" those to come to Him in faith?

 

[cygnusx1]

Like Behe's Boy, I am fairly new to the reformed doctrines and in truth, my head feels like it's going to explode with trying to comprehend the ordo salutis. A good friend of mine is a Calvinist who attends Westminster Seminary and does a great job in explaining the reformed doctrine to me. The whole concept of free will vs. predestination is something that I go back and forth with. In fact, I really struggle with the whole concept of election and the fact that God chooses those to come to faith in Him. I grew up with the whole Armenian (sp?) frame of thought, but am now currently attending a PCA church. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if God loves all, then how is it that He "elects" those to come to Him in faith?

Greetings SeRapH&CheRi

There are degrees of Love ..........God can Love by giving ample provision throughout a life time to the non-elect....but that love is going to one day end.

Even men in heaven no longer are required to love their enemies , it's temporal.

But God's Love toward his Elect Is Eternal.

here's a useful web page if you have the time http://home.rochester.rr.com/matthewl/predestination/essay/toc.html

 

[SeRapH&CheRi]

Greetings SeRapH&CheRi

There are degrees of Love ..........God can Love by giving ample provision throughout a life time to the non-elect....but that love is going to one day end.

Even men in heaven no longer are required to love their enemies , it's temporal.

But God's Love toward his Elect Is Eternal.

here's a useful web page if you have the time http://home.rochester.rr.com/matthewl/predestination/essay/toc.html

Hi cygnusx1,
thanks for the link. that's a pretty long essay he's written! i skimmed over it a little bit and will go back to thoroughly read it when I have some more time. the author stated in his introduction that God chooses to save some people and not others....and he also went on to indicate that since God is in control of all things, He is also in control of man's will. These statements disturb me because it makes us sound like we're just a bunch of puppet with strings that God is pulling because we are unable to make choices for ourselves. i also find it difficult to grasp the fact that God chooses to save some over others. i'm sure that you've gone over that whole diatribe of "if God is such a loving God then He would...He wouldn't....etc...i think of my salvation and then i think.....what if i wasn't really predestined to be saved since God already knows the outcome of my situation in the end? then what of my salvation? i know that this leads to another whole topic of "Can One Lose Their Salvation?", but i'll leave that for another thread. i hope my musings here made some sense. i'm sorry if it hasn't - but i really am serious about learning more about the reformed faith since I attend a PCA church in the city.

S&C

 

[Reformationist]

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if God loves all, then how is it that He "elects" those to come to Him in faith?

Just out of curiosity, where is the idea that God is omnibenevolent coming from? Is it, as it is in the case of most, spawned from a desire to protect God from being labeled as unfair or unloving or do you have some biblical basis for believing this? The closest I could personally come to making such a claim is similar to what cygnusx1 stated. God loves all of creation, but not in the same sense. He loves all of creation in the sense that it all brings Him glory but His love for His elect is His motivation for providentially governing whatsoever comes to pass. Despite what the liberal Christian will tell you, God does not love all people in this way.

God bless

 

[llwyn]

,
i also find it difficult to grasp the fact that God chooses to save some over others. i'm sure that you've gone over that whole diatribe of "if God is such a loving God then He would...He wouldn't....etc...i think of my salvation

We should refrain from isolating God's attributes - as though being a God of Love precludes being a God of Justice. All of God's attributes are extant & operative all of the time, infinitely. God, in His Mercy and Grace saves some to His own Glory. God, in His Justice & Holiness punishes others to His own Glory. Either way, Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[cygnusx1]

Many are called (universal love) but few are Chosen(special and particular love.)

 

[StAnselm]

the easiest way to get a handle on the ideas is to look at the ordo salutis

But it is vitally important not to lose the sense of mystery - and sometimes the ordo salutis makes things look a bit too neat. God's messier that that.

For example, in exceptional circumstances regeneration may precede the external call. We need to be open to these sorts of possibilities...

But what is 'quickening', anyway? Isn't it the same as regeneration?

 

[StAnselm]

I grew up with the whole Armenian (sp?) frame of thought

Arminian. In this case it's important, because an Armenian is someone from Armenia. Arminianism is named after Jacobus Arminius.

I have a friend who's an Armenian Calvinist!!

 

[SeRapH&CheRi]

Arminian. In this case it's important, because an Armenian is someone from Armenia. Arminianism is named after Jacobus Arminius.

Now aren't we just the grammar nazi here!?!?!

I have a friend who's an Armenian Calvinist!!

Okay, now I'm confused! How can that be?????

 

[cygnusx1]

Now aren't we just the grammar nazi here!?!?!

Okay, now I'm confused! How can that be?????

because he is a Calvinist and he comes from....................Armenia

 

[StAnselm]

because he is a Calvinist and he comes from....................Armenia

She, actually.

But yeah - hence the importance of the spelling...

 

[SeRapH&CheRi]

Ack! Just got that!! My brain was kind of acting slow for a moment.....

 

[StAnselm]

Let me see, that was 28 hours and 35 minutes...

 

[CCWoody]

Hey Reformationists out there - and I consider myself one - but just a baby in the doctrine!

I have a question - isn't there a mystery to predestination? As in: although we were predestined before time to receive salvation - it still doesn't change the fact that we had to exert some kind of freewill to become believers. In other words God choose us in his soveriegnty but our conversion came in response to the calling of the Holy Spirit. That is my current understanding of the doctrine - am I off base with this - is so can someone set me straight?

Perhaps this might be an easy way for you to grasp this:

I chose to submit to the Lord. I chose the Lord freely. But, if say that I chose the Lord [logically] before the Lord chose me, which is the Arminian (and other's) scheme, then I make the scriptures a lie.

The interesting thing here is that, historically, this other scheme, where man chooses first, was something Augustine fought a long time ago when he battled the Pelagian heretics.

"But we say," say they, "that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work." But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, "We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. But all the many things which we have said concerning this matter need not to be repeated. ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo




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