Question on Luke 21

[intricatic]

Luke 21
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”
10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Okay, so my question is this: What does "The Times of the Gentiles" refer to, and what are they fulfilling? I've been trying to figure this out, but I haven't made any headway. Is this referring to a prophecy somewhere, or am I just missing something?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

This prophecy is 'dual' in that it was fulfilled already in type with the destruction of the Temple and Jersalem in 70-71 A.D., but is also an end-time prophecy. Events in the world right now may portend the final fulfillment. But of course only God knows for sure.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

[/U][/COLOR]Okay, so my question is this: What does "The Times of the Gentiles" refer to, and what are they fulfilling? I've been trying to figure this out, but I haven't made any headway. Is this referring to a prophecy somewhere, or am I just missing something?

intricatic,
"The Times of the Gentiles" refers to the period roughly from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the end of the present age, when Jesus will return to the earth. As is very common with prophecies, it refers to both judgment and blessing. "The Times of the Gentiles" is a where:

1) Judgment came upon the Jews in the destruction of the temple in AD 70. The parable of the vineyard (Luke 20:9-19) showed judgment would come upon the Jewish leaders, that the vineyard would be taken away from them. Since then non-Jews (Gentiles) have dominated Jerusalem, especially the temple area.

2) Blessing came upon the Gentiles in that the gospel is being preached to all nations. In the parallel chapters of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus said the gospel will be preached to all nations first, before the end comes.

In Romans 11:25-27 Paul expanded a bit further on this:

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

Paul relates the removal of the partial hardening of the Jews with then end of the Times of the Gentiles. At that time Israel as a whole will turn to Jesus as their Savior, while the nations will come against Israel to destroy it. God will then reverse the judgment/blessing - with judgment on the attacking nations and blessing upon the Jews who have returned to Him through Jesus (Zachariah 8-10).


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy intricatic,

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Okay, so my question is this: What does "The Times of the Gentiles" refer to, and what are they fulfilling? I've been trying to figure this out, but I haven't made any headway. Is this referring to a prophecy somewhere, or am I just missing something?

Greetings. Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): "13 How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
One major fulfilment of the 2300 days could be from the opening vision of Daniel 8 that depicts the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. "The Anchor Atlas of World History" states that Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews.

But this is only a part of the times of the Gentiles which commenced when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Judah and Jerusalem, and will conclude when Jesus subdues the nations that come against Israel and Jerusalem in the near future Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14. Jesus is specifically looking at the overthrow of Judah and Jerusalem in AD 70 and this was a continuation and heightening of the devastating power of the Gentiles over Judah and Jerusalem. The phrase "trodden down" gives an impression of the marching of an army, and Babylon, Greece and the Romans fulfilled this in their own day and the Gentile nations will again seek to overthrow Jerusalem, but Jesus will subdue these nations.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jon914]

Howdy intricatic, Greetings. Jesus appears to be alluding to Daniel 8 when he says:
Luke 21:24 (KJV): "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Compare the similarity of the language:
Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): "13 How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
One major fulfilment of the 2300 days could be from the opening vision of Daniel 8 that depicts the overthrow of the Ram by the He-Goat. "The Anchor Atlas of World History" states that Alexander defeated the Persians at Granicus in May BC 334, and at Issus in Nov BC 333. Add 2300 years to this and we arrive at 1967, the Six-Day War, when Jerusalem was once again brought under the control of the Jews.

But this is only a part of the times of the Gentiles which commenced when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Judah and Jerusalem, and will conclude when Jesus subdues the nations that come against Israel and Jerusalem in the near future Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14. Jesus is specifically looking at the overthrow of Judah and Jerusalem in AD 70 and this was a continuation and heightening of the devastating power of the Gentiles over Judah and Jerusalem. The phrase "trodden down" gives an impression of the marching of an army, and Babylon, Greece and the Romans fulfilled this in their own day and the Gentile nations will again seek to overthrow Jerusalem, but Jesus will subdue these nations.

Kind regards
Trevor

Who is God dealing with at this moment?
The JEWS..? OR the gentiles????? How long will this last........? .......between the rapture and the building to the last temple......


John914

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy jon914,

Greetings. From your brief response I am uncertain if you are agreeing with my previos comments, disagreeing or simply adding other aspects. You seem to hint at a few views that are popular, but in my opinion some of these views seem to ignore some aspects of the revealed Word and Bible prophecy.

"Who is God dealing with at this moment?
The JEWS..? OR the gentiles?????"

Your question seems to demand a black or white answer, but God is preparing Israel for the events that will happen in the near future. The Scripture that is the basis of this thread indicates that both Judah and Jerusalem would be overthrown, as occured in AD70, and this was an evidence that God had rejected the nation, and removed them from their previous exalted status:
Luke 21:23-24 (KJV): "23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days ! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
But this also indicates that Jerusalem would be subjugated or trodden down for a period of time, called the times of the Gentiles. The events of 1967 indicate that God is at work with the Jews, when the military domination of Jerusalem was returned to the Jews, making events ready for the final onslaught of the Gentile nations against Jerusalem. This particular "times of the Gentiles" in this context speaks of the period of time that God has allowed the Gentiles to have military and political control over Jerusalem, "trodden down", and God has used these Gentiles nations to judge his nation of Israel.

Ezekiel 38 also indicates the gradual return of some of the Jews to the land of Israel in "the latter years", before the final onslaught of the nations.
Ezekiel 38:8-12 (KJV): "8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

This partial return of the Jews to their land has been in unbelief that Jesus is their Messiah. The events of Ezekiel 38 will bring the conversion of Israel:
Ezekiel 39:23-29 (KJV): "23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. 25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; 26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD."

"How long will this last........? .......between the rapture and the building to the last temple......"

I am uncertain of what you are exactly saying in this part. Looking at two aspects, the Temple will be built by Jesus and the faithful after the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39, and the details and some of the events concerning the Temple are revealed in Ezekiel 40-48 and Zechariah 14.

The term "rapture" does not appear in the Scriptures and I do not agree with some of the recent popular views on this subject. But I believe that there will be a separation of the faithful while or shortly before the invasion of Ezekiel 38 is happening, and an interesting reference is:
Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV): "19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."
The above seems to indicate that this separation of the faithful, occurs immediately after the resurrection of the faithful dead including Isaiah, who are asleep in the dust, waiting for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon earth centred in Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor