Question on John 15:7

[abbasdaughter]

It's my understanding that in the greek there are several ways in which to interpret the word "if" - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class conditions (so I hear)... I've been told that the word "if" in this sentence can be rendered "whoever". Why? And I've also been told that some "ifs" can be rendered "since" - is this one of them?

In short - is "abiding" a positional or conditional truth? Or is it both? Help...

Thanks in advance from a pea-brained person...
(please answer in basic english)

abbasdaughter

 

[FallingWaters]

It's my understanding that in the greek there are several ways in which to interpret the word "if" - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class conditions (so I hear)... I've been told that the word "if" in this sentence can be rendered "whoever". Why? And I've also been told that some "ifs" can be rendered "since" - is this one of them?

In short - is "abiding" a positional or conditional truth? Or is it both? Help...

Thanks in advance from a pea-brained person...
(please answer in basic english)

abbasdaughter

Even if the word if can be translated several different ways, that doesn't mean it should be.
Part of the very important job of the translator is deciding which is the proper way, in that particular context, to translate a certain word.
We cannot just pick a word, pull it out of context, and change it to whatever we want!

If you go to BlueLetterBible.org you will see a dozen different trusted translations.

As far as whether it is positional or conditional truth or both, I don't know for sure.
When I was a Charismatic Christian, I was taught it from a more positional viewpoint.
Now that I attend a Baptist church, it is taught from a more conditional viewpoint.

I personally am tired of lazy shallow Christianity that teaches that God is like a great big vending machine.
There is a rich depth of life that we are missing if we don't take the words of Jesus into our souls and live by them.
Life in Christ is so much more substantial than "Lord, won't you buy me a color tv."

Pursue HIM with all your soul.
You won't be sorry.

 

[abbasdaughter]

Just to clarify - my interest in this verse at the moment really has nothing to do with the last part of the verse - it is more to do with the "abiding" aspect of the verse. I understand that some people see it as positional and some conditional depending upon their denominational background. I want to know if indeed there is a correct translation - if somewhere in the greek it tells us specifically if abiding is a positional truth or not.

For instance - isn't it true that if I am a believer, I am a branch in the Vine. This is positional by virture of relationship. But isn't it also true that I am a believer, I have been commanded to "abide". So it would seem that I am abiding by virture of relationship and yet told to do something that I am already doing. I'm thinking it is both - but I want to be able to see from scripture what is true... frankly I don't care what my denomination believes or whether it serves me in any way to believe one way or another - I want to stand in the middle of the truth of Scripture - that is where I am trying to get. Thanks again... abbasdaughter

 

[Jerrysch]

It's my understanding that in the greek there are several ways in which to interpret the word "if" - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class conditions (so I hear)... I've been told that the word "if" in this sentence can be rendered "whoever". Why? And I've also been told that some "ifs" can be rendered "since" - is this one of them?

In short - is "abiding" a positional or conditional truth? Or is it both? Help...

Thanks in advance from a pea-brained person...
(please answer in basic english)

abbasdaughter

This is a very good question, I will not advance an answer, but I would like to suggest that you research out anything that is given to you as an answer, some answers here might be good starting points, but a good Greek grammar will give you a complete answer< I suggest :

The Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar
(second edition)
Written by: Dr. William D. Mounce
Format: Printed Hardcover
Page Count: 480
List Price: $41.99 {CDN:$64.99 }
Size: 6-1/8 x 9-3/16
ISBN: 0-310-25087-0
Publisher: Zondervan

(Wow It went up$$).

 

[abbasdaughter]

This is a very good question, I will not advance an answer, but I would like to suggest that you research out anything that is given to you as an answer, some answers here might be good starting points, but a good Greek grammar will give you a complete answer< I suggest :

The Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar
(second edition)
Written by: Dr. William D. Mounce
Format: Printed Hardcover
Page Count: 480
List Price: $41.99 {CDN:$64.99 }
Size: 6-1/8 x 9-3/16
ISBN: 0-310-25087-0
Publisher: Zondervan

(Wow It went up$$).

Thanks for the recommendation... abbasdaughter

 

[plmarquette]

John 15.7I if you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

... your Christian walk ... " If .... Then " , just like mom and dad ... if you pick up your room , then you get to go to the game ...

1 John 5.14-18 ... we know , providing we are not guilty of a major sin , then the enemy can't harm us (if-then)

Mark 11.23-4 if you are born again of water and spirit & believe in signs , wonders , and answered prayers , then speak to mountains in your life by and in faith , expect them to move

Mark 16.16-20 these signs and wonders will follow your faith ... should you believe in them , the authority of the Words , and the authority of you the believer speaking them ... as in Luke 9.1 , 10.9 ... he gave authority and sent them forth , just as the great commission .... ( If .. then )

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It's my understanding that in the greek there are several ways in which to interpret the word "if" - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class conditions (so I hear)... I've been told that the word "if" in this sentence can be rendered "whoever". Why? And I've also been told that some "ifs" can be rendered "since" - is this one of them?

In short - is "abiding" a positional or conditional truth? Or is it both? Help...

Thanks in advance from a pea-brained person...
(please answer in basic english)

abbasdaughter

The New Testament was written in Greek rather than in English, therefore we first need to determine what Greek verb is being translated in our English versions as “abide.” In all occurrences of the English word “abide” in the four gospels in the KJV, the Greek verb is the same (&#956;&#949;&#957;&#969. Its occurrences in the three synoptic gospels are not particularly relevant to your question so we can confine our discussion to its occurrences in the Gospel According to John. The same Greek verb is also used in John 15:4 where it is translated “abideth,” in John 15:9 where it is translated as “continue,” and in John 16:16 where it is translated “remain.” It is also used in John chapter 1 four times, John chapter 2 once, John chapter 3 once, John chapter 4 once, John chapter 5 once, John chapter 6 twice, John chapter 7 once, John chapter 8 twice, John chapter 9 once, John chapter 10 once, and in John chapters 11, 12, 14, 19, and 21.

I have selected the passages that I believe to be the most relevant to your question and I have written them out below from the Updated New American Standard Bible (NASB, 1995).

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;”

John 15:4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”

John 15:6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”

John 15:10. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”

John 15:16. “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

Secondly we must consider the mood of the verb in each verse in which it is found. In Greek there are four moods:

Indicative – the mood used in making a statement with certainty, whether true or false, or an interrogation of facts
Examples in English: I have a Bible. Do you have a Bible?
Imperative – the moods used in commands
Example in English: Give me a Bible
Subjunctive – the mood used in suppositions of probability
Example in English: If I had a Bible…
Optative – the mood used in expressing wishes and desires
Example in English: I wish that I had a Bible

Verbs are conjugated for five things:

Voice (active, middle, or passive)
Mood (indicative, imperative, subjunctive, or optative)
Tense (present, imperfect, aorist, future, perfect, past-perfect)
Person (first, second or third)
Number (singular or plural)

Greek verbs, unlike most English verbs, are inflected according to these five things. The verb “to be” in English still is inflected to a greater extent than most English verbs:

Present tense, indicative mood
I am, We are
You are, You are
He/she/it is, They are

Past tense, indicative mood
I was, We were
You were, You were
He/she/it was, They were

Imperative mood
Be, Be

Subjunctive mood
If I were, If we were
If you were, If you were
If he/she/it were, If they were

Optative mood
I wish I were, We wish we were
You wish you were, You wish you were
He/she/it wishes that he/she/it were, They wish that they were

Greek verbs in the New Testament, however, are inflected for almost every change in voice, mood, tense, person and number. Therefore, by looking at the inflected form of the verb one can tell (with only a few exceptions) the voice, mood, tense, person and number of each verb in the Greek New Testament.

(Continued below)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The third thing that we must consider are the four kinds of conditional sentences found in the Greek New Testament:

1. The supposition of a fact. Example: For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; (1 Cor. 15:16). In this kind of conditional sentence we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#953;&#787; used with the verb in the indicative mood in the protasis (the &#8220;if&#8221; clause), and either the indicative mood or the imperative mood (or the subjunctive mood in the case of a prohibition) in the apodosis (the &#8220;then&#8221; clause).

2. The supposition of a possibility. Example: If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. (John 7:17). In this kind of conditional sentence we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#787;&#945;&#768;&#957;&#787; used with the verb in the subjunctive mood in the protasis, and either the indicative mood or the imperative mood (or the aorist subjunctive with &#959;&#965;&#787; &#956;&#951;&#768 in the apodosis.

3. The supposition of an uncertainty. Example: who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me. (Acts 24:19).
In this kind of conditional sentence we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#953;&#787; used with the verb in the optative mood. There are no examples in the New Testament where this kind of conditional sentence is used having both the protasis and the apodosis.

4 The supposition of something contrary to fact. Example: If God were your Father, you would love Me. (John 8:42). In this kind of conditional sentence we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#953;&#787; used with the verb in the protasis and the Greek particle &#7938;&#957;&#787; used with the verb in the apodosis with the indicative mood used in both the protasis and the apodosis.


Now let&#8217;s look at the individual verses listed above.

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, &#8220;If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine.&#8221; Here we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#787;&#945;&#768;&#957; &#787; used with the verb in the subjunctive mood in the protasis and in the indicative mood in the apodosis.

John 15:4. &#8220;Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.&#8221; Although it is not apparent from this English translation, this verse does include a conditional clause and we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#787;&#945;&#768;&#957; &#787; used with the verb in the subjunctive mood in the protasis. (Compare Young&#8217;s Literal Translation of the Bible, &#8220;remain in me, and I in you, as the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself, if it may not remain in the vine, so neither ye, if ye may not remain in me.&#8221

John 15:6. &#8220;If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.&#8221; Here we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#787;&#945;&#768;&#957; &#787; used with the verb in the subjunctive mood in the protasis and in the indicative mood in the apodosis.

John 15:7. &#8220;If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you&#8221;. Here we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#787;&#945;&#768;&#957; &#787; used with the verb in the subjunctive mood in the protasis and in the indicative mood in the apodosis.

John 15:10. &#8220;If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.&#8221; Here we find the conditional Greek particle &#949;&#787;&#945;&#768;&#957; &#787; used with the verb in the subjunctive mood in the protasis and in the indicative mood in the apodosis.

John 15:16. &#8220;You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.&#8221; We have no conditional clauses in this verse, but the verb that we are studying (translated here &#8220;remain&#8221; rather than &#8220;abide&#8221 is in the subjunctive mood, the mood expressing a probability rather than a certainty. It is also worth pointing out that the mood of the several other verbs in this verse, hence:

John 15:16. &#8220;You did not choose (indicative) Me but I chose (indicative) you, and appointed (indicative) you that you would go (subjunctive) and bear (subjunctive) fruit, and that your fruit would remain (subjunctive), so that whatever you ask (subjunctive) of the Father in My name He may give (subjunctive) to you.&#8221;

John 15:1. &#8220;I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. &#8220;Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3. &#8220;You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. &#8220;Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5. &#8220;I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. &#8220;If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. &#8220;If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.&#8221;

The word &#8220;abide&#8221; in verse 4 is in the subjunctive mood; Jesus is telling his disciple that unless they remain in him, they cannot bear fruit.
The word &#8220;abide&#8221; in verse 5 is in the imperative mood; Jesus is commanding His disciple to abide in him.
The word &#8220;abide&#8221; in verse 6 is in the subjunctive mood; Jesus is telling his disciple that if anyone does not remain in him, they are cast into the fire and are burned. It is very interesting that the verbs translated &#8220;thrown&#8221; and &#8220;dries up&#8221; are in the Greek aorist tense, a tense indicating past action completed at a point in time, as though anyone who fails to remain in Christ is viewed by God as already having been dried up and thrown out like a dried up branch to be cast into the fire where they are burned. This is a very stern warning in vivid language to those individuals who are in Christ that the consequence of failing to obey His command to remain in Him is to be dried up and burned like a dried up branch of a vine.
The word &#8220;abide&#8221; in verse 7 is in the subjunctive mood in both of its occurrences in this verse; Jesus is telling his disciple that if they (the you is plural) abide in Him and His words abide in them, they are to ask (imperative mood and hence a command) for whatever they wish and it will be done for them.

Therefore, the answer to you question is that in these verses the word &#8220;if&#8221; means &#8220;if,&#8221; not &#8220;since,&#8221; and that the promises found in these verse, both the good and the bad, are conditional upon the disciples, individually, continuing to abide (remaining) in Christ, and His words continuing to abide (remaining) in them. How do we continue to abide in Christ? Jesus answered that question for us, &#8220;If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.&#8221;

God has chosen us and appointed us, but what we do with that choice and the appointments is up to us. (John 15:16)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

This is a very good question, I will not advance an answer, but I would like to suggest that you research out anything that is given to you as an answer, some answers here might be good starting points, but a good Greek grammar will give you a complete answer< I suggest :

The Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar
(second edition)
Written by: Dr. William D. Mounce
Format: Printed Hardcover
Page Count: 480
List Price: $41.99 {CDN:$64.99 }
Size: 6-1/8 x 9-3/16
ISBN: 0-310-25087-0
Publisher: Zondervan

(Wow It went up$$).

Most Greek grammars are written by Christian men who have very strong theological views that significantly &#8220;color&#8221; their understanding of the Grammar of the New Testament. Therefore it is important to use not just one Greek grammar, but several, written by men of different theological persuasions, and to be aware of how the theology of each teacher colored his understanding. Additionally, there are several points of Greek grammar that are viewed differently by different teachers. For example, many Greek teachers believe that there are five cases of nouns, participles, adjectives, pronouns, and the definite article. Many other teachers believe that there are eight. Teachers of Greek also differ regarding the nature of the action of Greek verbs, some teachers believing that the aspect of Greek verbs is just about all that there is to their tenses, while others believe that Greek verbs tenses include a definite reference to time, though not to the degree that we find in English tenses.

 

[abbasdaughter]

PrincetonGuy - THANK YOU - that is exactly what I was asking for. I appreciate your time and diligence in sharing. Blessings, abbasdaughter

 

[A Brother In Christ]

John 15.7I if you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

this is conditional

romans 6 and 2 tim 2:11-13 all if are since it true

 

[rdclmn72]

The farmer decides where every leaf grows, where every branch lies, where every shade tree grows, everything.
If you don't clear the leaves, the sun won't warm the branches provoking the natural cycle. If you don't clear leaves, you harvest leaves and not grapes.
There is a cause and effect relationship between being attached and the factors the eventually result in a healthy, bountiful crop. In this case asking and recieving are key to the development of plentiful fruit. You don't need greek to understand grapes.