Question on Gun Control - real life question asking for practical answers.

[Always in His Presence]

Background:

Key Details About ATF Form 4473:​

• Purpose: The form collects information to verify that the buyer is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm under federal or state law. It facilitates a background check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).
• Information Required:
  • Personal details: name, address, date of birth, and government-issued photo ID (e.g., driver’s license, passport).
  • Questions about eligibility, including whether the buyer is a felon, fugitive, has certain mental health adjudications, domestic violence convictions, or other prohibiting factors listed in 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) and (n).
  • Details about the firearm: make, model, serial number, type, and caliber.
  • A short affidavit stating the buyer is eligible to purchase firearms and is the actual buyer (not purchasing for someone prohibited, i.e., no straw purchases).
• Background Check: The FFL submits the buyer’s information to NICS or a state equivalent to check for criminal history or other disqualifiers. The check typically takes minutes but can be delayed for further review.
• Retention: The FFL must keep the completed Form 4473 for 20 years after the transaction, whether the sale is approved or denied. Denied forms are retained for five years.
• Penalties for False Information: Lying on Form 4473 is a federal felony, punishable by up to five years in prison and fines, though prosecutions are rare unless a felony is committed with the purchased firearm.

Question:

What would you add, expand on or remove.

Examples:

Some want an expanded view on the person's mental health

1. How would you do that?
2. What about HIPPA laws?
3. What type of exam and by whom?

Some want private gun sales to require form 4473

1. How would you track the 300,000,000 plus guns already out there?
2. Would you be in favor of a national registry for all guns?

Some call for mandatory sentencing for gun crimes

Let's keep personalities out as much as possible and talk about practical application. What do your changes look like in real life.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I fully support mandatory sentencing with no option for plea bargaining. Commit a crime involving a gun - serve a specific amount of time. no ifs, ands or buts. Personal accountability.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Background:

Key Details About ATF Form 4473:​

• Purpose: The form collects information to verify that the buyer is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm under federal or state law. It facilitates a background check through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).
• Information Required:
  • Personal details: name, address, date of birth, and government-issued photo ID (e.g., driver’s license, passport).
  • Questions about eligibility, including whether the buyer is a felon, fugitive, has certain mental health adjudications, domestic violence convictions, or other prohibiting factors listed in 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) and (n).
  • Details about the firearm: make, model, serial number, type, and caliber.
  • A short affidavit stating the buyer is eligible to purchase firearms and is the actual buyer (not purchasing for someone prohibited, i.e., no straw purchases).
• Background Check: The FFL submits the buyer’s information to NICS or a state equivalent to check for criminal history or other disqualifiers. The check typically takes minutes but can be delayed for further review.
• Retention: The FFL must keep the completed Form 4473 for 20 years after the transaction, whether the sale is approved or denied. Denied forms are retained for five years.
• Penalties for False Information: Lying on Form 4473 is a federal felony, punishable by up to five years in prison and fines, though prosecutions are rare unless a felony is committed with the purchased firearm.

Question:

What would you add, expand on or remove.

Examples:

Some want an expanded view on the person's mental health

1. How would you do that?
2. What about HIPPA laws?
3. What type of exam and by whom?

Some want private gun sales to require form 4473

1. How would you track the 300,000,000 plus guns already out there?
2. Would you be in favor of a national registry for all guns?

Some call for mandatory sentencing for gun crimes

Let's keep personalities out as much as possible and talk about practical application. What do your changes look like in real life.

How about a law which states that a registered gun owner will be held legally responsible for every bullet fired from any gun registered in their name, regardless if they pulled the trigger? I believe this law will both respect an individual's constitutional rights and encourage responsible gun ownership.

 

[Always in His Presence]

How about a law which states that a registered gun owner will be held legally responsible for every bullet fired from any gun registered in their name, regardless if they pulled the trigger? I believe this law will both respect an individual's constitutional rights and encourage responsible gun ownership.

100% with you on that. As long as the legal ramifications had well defined minimum mandatory sentences.

 

[seeking.IAM]

In my state private sales of firearms are unregulated. I can meet you in the parking lot of Walmart and sell you my AR-15 without a background check as long as you are also a citizen of my state. We could start by fixing that. Make every firearm sale go through a FFL and have a background check. It's worth noting my state also provides the pipeline of guns to Chicago.

 

[Always in His Presence]

In my state private sales of firearms are unregulated. I can meet you in the parking lot of Walmart and sell you my AR-15 without a background check as long as you are also a citizen of my state. We could start by fixing that. Make every firearm sell go through a FFL and have a background check. It's worth noting my state also provides the pipeline of guns to Chicago.

What does that look like in real life - how do you tract and enforce it?

 

[seeking.IAM]

Some want an expanded view on the person's mental health

1. How would you do that?
2. What about HIPPA laws?
3. What type of exam and by whom?

I think red flag laws are a place to start. We have mandatory reporting laws for when child abuse is suspicioned. How about a reporting mechanism for that weird kid next door who seems obsessed with guns and just doesn't seem quite right? That could trigger an investigation in the same way an abuse report gets CPS knocking on your door.

As I said in the other thread, I am trained and qualified to administer psychological testing and mental status exams. I don't have anything in my bag of tricks to accurately predict perpetrators of violence. Well, maybe the most obviously unhinged, perhaps, but most people just aren't that obvious until they do what they've done.

 

[seeking.IAM]

What does that look like in real life - how do you tract and enforce it?

There are a lot of legit, lawful gun owners looking to sell a gun who just don't know much about who they are selling it to. They aren't up to no good. They are just trying to dispose of property in a legal way. If the law was changed prohibiting private sales, those legit, lawful gun owners would follow the law. Admittedly, it is not a cure all, but we have to start somewhere.

 

[Always in His Presence]

There are a lot of legit, lawful gun owners looking to sell a gun who just don't know much about who they are selling it to. They aren't up to no good. They are just trying to dispose of property in a legal way. If the law was changed prohibiting private sales, those legit, lawful gun owners would follow the law. Admittedly, it is not a cure all, but we have to start somewhere.

I applaud your trust in law abiding citizens - but how do we track it? How does the government know when a gun changes hands? How does an individual make sure the proper forms are filed?

 

[Always in His Presence]

I think red flag laws are a place to start. We have mandatory reporting laws for when child abuse is suspicioned. How about a reporting mechanism for that weird kid next door who seems obsessed with guns and just doesn't seem quite right? That could trigger an investigation in the same way an abuse report gets CPS knocking on your door.

I am a mandatory reporter for child abuse suspicion because of my position in the ministry. It's a serious accusation. Who would answer the calls? Does the person get marked for life? It sounds like it would require an red flag database - that is an issue unto itself. you can't do that to someone who has not been convicted of a crime.

Sounds like really muddy water.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

There are a lot of legit, lawful gun owners looking to sell a gun who just don't know much about who they are selling it to. They aren't up to no good. They are just trying to dispose of property in a legal way. If the law was changed prohibiting private sales, those legit, lawful gun owners would follow the law. Admittedly, it is not a cure all, but we have to start somewhere.

Consider implementing a government buy-back program similar to the one used in Australia. Individuals who wish to sell their firearms would be required to either find licensed gun dealers or sell directly to the government. This approach would allow gun owners who no longer wish to possess firearms to do so safely while also helping to prevent guns from ending up in the wrong hands.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I applaud your trust in law abiding citizens - but how do we track it? How does the government know when a gun changes hands? How does an individual make sure the proper forms are filed?

Perhaps guns should have the same registration requirements as automobiles. Registration required at time of purchase and must be renewed annually to ensure contact information is up to date. Make it free so there will be no excuse. Then if someone illegally sells a gun without doing the proper paperwork, and that gun is used in a violent crime, the last registered owner will do jail time. If someone neglects to secure their guns, and those guns are stolen and used in a violent crime, the last registered owner will do jail time. How many law abiding gun owners would risk doing jail time because they sold their guns without legally transferring the owner registration?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Perhaps guns should have the same registration requirements as automobiles. Registration required at time of purchase and must be renewed annually to ensure contact information is up to date. Make it free so there will be no excuse. Then if someone illegally sells a gun without doing the proper paperwork, and that gun is used in a violent crime, the last registered owner will do jail time. If someone neglects to secure their guns, and those guns are stolen and used in a violent crime, the last registered owner will do jail time. How many law abiding gun owners would risk doing jail time because they sold their guns without legally transferring the owner registration?

A national gun registry has been spoken of.

• Second Amendment Rights: Many opponents believe a registry infringes on the right to keep and bear arms by enabling future restrictions or confiscation.
• Government Overreach: There's deep skepticism about giving the federal government a comprehensive list of gun owners, which some view as a step toward authoritarian control.
• Slippery Slope Argument: Critics fear that registration could lead to mandatory buybacks or bans, citing historical examples in other countries.

Additionally there are over 500,000,000 million civilian firearms in America. The law abiding will more likely than not - the criminal definitely will not. Sort of like locking the door after the house was robbed.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

A national gun registry has been spoken of.

• Second Amendment Rights: Many opponents believe a registry infringes on the right to keep and bear arms by enabling future restrictions or confiscation.
• Government Overreach: There's deep skepticism about giving the federal government a comprehensive list of gun owners, which some view as a step toward authoritarian control.
• Slippery Slope Argument: Critics fear that registration could lead to mandatory buybacks or bans, citing historical examples in other countries.

Additionally there are over 500,000,000 million civilian firearms in America. The law abiding will more likely than not - the criminal definitely will not. Sort of like locking the door after the house was robbed.

To be fair, that is a legitimate concern.

 

[Richard T]

If someone steals your car and kills someone with it, that is not your fault, though if you left the keys in it you might have a civil cuit. Guns will always be stolen, even the Federal Government has had guns stolen directly from them. Narcotics that kill are also stolen from hopsitals, clinics, pharmacies etc and they also kill (perhaps more than guns I imagine) So to put the blame on responsible gun owners for a theft of their gun seems unfair. A state could define responsible gun ownership though but it should not be allowed to infringe on the right of self protection. For instance, to protect yourself you can't have every gun in a safe all the time and still defend yourself from sudden threats. However, to leave a gun unlocked in a home where minors are seems justified for some regulation. The law would have to be crafted very carefully though. Perhaps some states have these laws now?
Also, currently there is no requirement for reporting a stolen gun. That seems strange to me. Many do self-report, but it is not required.
Here is the raw data though on how many guns are not registered. It is rare if they are. I imagine too that even of the 6 million, many have already been transfered from the registered owner to another person, perhaps even several times.

• Self-reported gun ownership in America increased by 28% from 1994 to 2023.
• Based on NICS background data and manufacturing records, it is estimated that there are 500 million civilian-owned firearms in the U.S.
• Only 6.06 million firearms are registered in America (the U.S. does not require registration for all firearms).

How Many Gun Owners are in America? (2025 Statistics)

How many gun owners are there in America in 2024? We'll break down the numbers in this article.

ammo.com

 

[Oompa Loompa]

If someone steals your car and kills someone with it, that is not your fault, though if you left the keys in it you might have a civil cuit. Guns will always be stolen, even the Federal Government has had guns stolen directly from them. Narcotics that kill are also stolen from hopsitals, clinics, pharmacies etc and they also kill (perhaps more than guns I imagine) So to put the blame on responsible gun owners for a theft of their gun seems unfair. A state could define responsible gun ownership though but it should not be allowed to infringe on the right of self protection. For instance, to protect yourself you can't have every gun in a safe all the time and still defend yourself from sudden threats. However, to leave a gun unlocked in a home where minors are seems justified for some regulation. The law would have to be crafted very carefully though. Perhaps some states have these laws now?
Also, currently there is no requirement for reporting a stolen gun. That seems strange to me. Many do self-report, but it is not required.
Here is the raw data though on how many guns are not registered. It is rare if they are. I imagine too that even of the 6 million, many have already been transfered from the registered owner to another person, perhaps even several times.

• Self-reported gun ownership in America increased by 28% from 1994 to 2023.
• Based on NICS background data and manufacturing records, it is estimated that there are 500 million civilian-owned firearms in the U.S.
• Only 6.06 million firearms are registered in America (the U.S. does not require registration for all firearms).

How Many Gun Owners are in America? (2025 Statistics)

How many gun owners are there in America in 2024? We'll break down the numbers in this article.

ammo.com

In my opinion, if a gun owner does not properly secure his weapons and allows them to be stolen, they are not responsible gun owners.

 

[Richard T]

In my opinion, if a gun owner does not properly secure his weapons and allows them to be stolen, they are not responsible gun owners.

I knew a case where a retired police officer was home invaded. He was woke up by three men all with guns that put a gun to his head in his bedroom. He escaped with his life though he was robbed of 11 guns, including several semi automatic, rifles. Was it his fault? Absolutely not. The Memphis article I read on the reason given for more people being shot was the number of people there who carry guns in their cars that end up in criminals hands because of theft. Though not as responsible as the previous example, but what can they do? Many places do not allow you to carry inside so leaving them in the car is required. I suppose you could require car safes, but brazen criminals will always be able to find a gun among the 500 million in the USA. What is needed though is not gun control but better values. The blame should not be placed on the law abiding citizen, but on the criminals who steal, resell and use these weapons.

 

[Bradskii]

I knew a case where a retired police officer was home invaded. He was woke up by three men all with guns that put a gun to his head in his bedroom.

You should make sure you bring up that anecdote when anyone suggests that they need guns for protecting their home and their families.

 

[A2SG]

How about a law which states that a registered gun owner will be held legally responsible for every bullet fired from any gun registered in their name, regardless if they pulled the trigger? I believe this law will both respect an individual's constitutional rights and encourage responsible gun ownership.

Hey, I suggested something like that a while ago, and was told by many pro-second amendment types that it was a bad idea, unamerican, etc. Glad to see the idea come back, I'd support it.

-- A2SG, see, common ground...was that so difficult?

 

[Richard T]

You should make sure you bring up that anecdote when anyone suggests that they need guns for protecting their home and their families.

Yes, but probably not in the way you were thinking. As this was fairly close to my neighborhood, I knew my handgun was no match. So I ordered a semi-auto rifle but again, I knew I was still outgunned. Better locks were the option, plus making sure that anyone trying to enter would make serious noise. I then had an escape or barricade plan. I would only shoot though if cornered. It was a year or so later when a couple just 4 blocks away were killed in a home invasion. Parts of Florida are tough.