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matt,MDTyKe said:Anyway, what is the reason for Purgatory then?
Matt
if you are truly seeking an answer from the Orthodox Church, then ask them about the sate of purification after death, instead of using the word "purgatory".
Davide, you are so cool....I didn't realize that was perhaps what he meant.Rising_Suns said:matt,
if you are truly seeking an answer from the Orthodox Church, then ask them about the sate of purification after death, instead of using the word "purgatory". You may get a response rather than a redirect to OBOB.
really? I always was told that the EO Church believes in a state of purification, they just didn't label it "purgatory", nor did they go into any details about it. If this state after death is not a required belief, that would make me a little weary of Orthodoxy, since this state has clearly been revealed to us through Sacred Scripture, Tradition, Church Fathers, and the writings of the Saints. Please forgive me.Oblio said:Bottom line is that there is no required doctrine, dogma, or belief of purgatory or anything like it in Orthodox theology.
Rising_Suns said:really? I always was told that the EO Church believes in a state of purification, they just didn't label it "purgatory", nor did they go into any details about it.
Life After Death said:It is noteworthy that the Council of 1722 in Constantinople, in an encyclical to the Orthodox of Antioch, referred, among other things, to the subject of the purifying fire. It is a synodal text which is very important and valuable.
It says that while the Latins affirm that there are three places to which the souls of the dead go, "we the godly, following the truth and turning away from such innovations, confess and accept two places for the souls of the dead, paradise and hell, for the righteous and sinners, as the holy Scripture teaches us. We do not accept a third place, a purgatory, by any means, since neither Scripture nor the holy Fathers have taught us any such thing. However, we believe that these two places have many abodes... None of the teachers of the Church have handed down or taught such a purgatory, but they all speak of one single place of punishment, hades, just as they teach about one luminous and bright place, paradise. But both places also have different abodes as we said; and since the souls of the holy and righteous go indisputably to paradise and those of the sinners go to hell, of whom the profane and those who have sinned unforgivably are punished forever and those who have offended forgivably and moderately hope to gain freedom through the unspeakable mercy of God. For on behalf of such souls, that is of the moderately and forgivably sinful, there are in the Church prayers, supplications, liturgies, as well as memorial services and almsgiving, that those souls may receive favour and comfort. Thus when the Church prays for the souls of those who are lying asleep, we hope that there will be comfort for them from God, but not through fire and purgatory, but through divine love for mankind, whereby the infinite goodness of God is seen"23.
From what has been said it is clear that in the Latins' teaching about the purifying fire there are two interesting points which show how it differs from orthodox teaching. One is that a purifying fire is distinguished from the eternal fire of hell, a notion which is nowhere in Holy Scripture and the Patristic tradition. The second is that because it is said that through the purifying fire people attain a vision of the essence of God, and since in the teaching of the Latins essence is identified with energy - for they speak of `actus purus' and created energy - therefore the 'purifying fire' is created. We shall see later on what kind of presuppositions this teaching of the Latins is based and what consequences it has for the spiritual life. However, it must be noted that it differs clearly from the theology of the Fathers of the Church.
Make no mistake! God is a fire, and has come as fire, and has cast fire on the earth. The same Fire goes about looking for kindling to seize upon, for a ready disposition and will, in order to fall upon it and ignite it. And in those in whom it is kindled, it rises up into a great flame and reaches to the heavens, and it allows the one so enflamed neither delay nor rest. Neither, as some people imagine about the dead, does it consume the burning soul unawares -- for the soul is both feeling and rational. Afterwards, when it has completely cleansed us of the filth of the passions, it becomes food and drink, light and joy without ceasing within us, and, by participation, it makes us light ourselves. It is like a clay pot that has been set on the fire. At first it is somewhat blackened by the smoke of the burning fuel, but after the fuel has begun to burn fiercely, then it becomes all translucent and like the fire itself, and the smoke can communicate none of its blackness to it. Just so, indeed, does the soul which has begun to burn with divine longing see first of all the murk of the passions within it, billowing out like smoke in the fire of the Holy Spirit. It sees in itself as in a mirror the blackness which accompanies the smoke, and it laments. It senses its evil thoughts like thorns, and its preconceptions, being consumed like dry kindling by the fire and reduced completely to ashes. After these things have been utterly destroyed and the essence alone of the soul remains, quite without passion, then the divine and immaterial fire unites itself essentially to the soul, too, and the latter is immediately kindled and becomes transparent, and shares in it like the clay pot does in the visible fire. So, too, with the body. It, too, becomes fire through participation in the divine and ineffable light.
("On the Mystical Life (Vol. 2)", pp. 98-99)
It is not heretical to reject the idea.
According to Scripture and the Fathers, not everyone will be sharing in the same glory of God in the Kingdom. If there were a "purgatory", would it purify all to the same degree? so that all would share in equal glory? If not, then why is belief in purgatory necessary?Rising_Suns said:We have discussed the possilbe implications of not having such a medium between heaven and hell with Protestants, so I now suppose our discussions should include Orthodox as well, as I would most definately be interested to hear what my Orthodox brethren have to say in defense of this, possibly more so than my Protestant brethren.
Life After Death said:He develops the same arguments also in his syllogisms about the non-existence of a purifying fire, explaining why we cannot accept the existence of such a temporary and created fire. In these syllogisms the arguments of St. Mark are centred around three points.
First that, as the whole Bible and the Tradition of the Church teach, there is a difference in the vision of God, according to the person's purification in this life. He who is more purified sees the glory of God more completely. Whenever there is greater and lesser vision of God it corresponds to the purification. If someone even has a few sins "he too sees God without any need for a purifying fire", as God's love for mankind is sufficient, of course to a proportionate degree. But the teaching about the purifying fire takes away this difference in the enjoyment of the glory of God. For if men of this category pass through the purifying fire, it follows that all the souls of the righteous "are in the same vision of God, which is bliss". But this is false, because Christ said that in His Father's Kingdom "there are many mansions" (John 14, 2).
The second argument is that it is not possible for the will of man to be changed by any purifying fire after his departure from this life. "The movement of the will and that of deeds is necessarily limited to the present life". The will can be changed as long as a man is in this life, whereas after death it remains immovable. "And he receives the prize or the punishment for these things and not for going through purgatory". So long, then, as uprightness of the will is needed for beatitude and so long as purgatory cannot change the will from bad to good, since this is in accordance with the way the person lived in his biological life, therefore "purgatory contributes nothing" towards beatitude. This too means that men cannot be purified by any purgatory.
The third argument is that, as there is a difference in enjoyment of the Kingdom of Heaven, so there is a difference of punishment. And, as we said earlier, the little good of the sinners cannot be repaid, "but can only have a different punishment". Thus even the little evil in the righteous "will not make a hell but only a difference of enjoyment". For this reason there cannot be a purifying fire, as the Latins say48.
If there were a "purgatory", would it purify all to the same degree? so that all would share in equal glory? If not, then why is belief in purgatory necessary?
St Gregory of Nyssa said:I do not speak rhetorically and with knowledge and am confronted with resistance yet wish to carefully reflect upon this issue by considering its logical order. What exactly is this order? It consists in knowing the origins of human nature and [God's] grace which brings us into existence. If we remain constant, we will not err from our proposed interpretation. Since everything comes from God, what is seen [J.77] in creation would be futile and no one, I believe, would assail our response when considering the truth of the matter. It is agreed that the universe has one cause and is not responsible for bringing itself into existence. But the universe as a whole is always uncreated, eternal, self-contained, transcends every concept of measurement, remains constant, is infinite and transcends all bounds. Its nature, time, space and everything in it lies beyond our grasp even if we could grasp anything which existed before it. Divinely inspired teaching also includes human nature. God brings everything into existence; man's created nature is composed of various elements; it is also carefully composed from what is both divine and intelligible. God intended this to be so for man when he endowed him with a living likeness of himself. In this instance I think it is better to quote Scripture: "And God made man in his image; in the image of God he created him" [Gen 1.27]. The source of this living [J.78] creation which existed before us has a two-fold division which belongs to every creature and, as the Apostle says [Col 1.16], is visible and invisible [M.173] (The invisible signifies what is intelligible and incorporeal while the visible belongs to the senses and the body).
Therefore the two-fold nature of every creature (I mean the sensible and rational) including the angelic, incorporeal nature which is invisible, belongs to the transcendent, celestial realm where it dwells in harmony (Since our intellectual nature is subtle, pure, light, easily moved, the heavenly body is subtle, weightless and always in motion). On the other hand, what belongs to the earth lies is completely opposite, the senses, and does not conform to what the mind comprehends (For how can what which lacks mass and is light have compatibility with what is heavy and dense?). Certainly the earth has nothing in common with what is intellectual and incorporeal. Thus [divine] foresight has in mind something better for human existence by reason of the soul's intellectual and divine union with earthly life, and the soul has an connaturality with fleshly existence due to its affinity with what is heavy and corporeal. The goal of these created qualities is to glorify [God's] transcendent power through our intellectual nature as well as our heavenly and earthy qualities (By this I mean the person who turns his regard [J.79] to God), and to achieve unity with a single purpose in mind. The person who turns to God possesses nothing else than that life which is associated with the intellectual nature.
Just as earthly food nourishes the body and we comprehend a certain corporeal form in them, so does this apply to both beasts and rational beings. For this reason we must examine the intellectual life which is essential to human nature. If fleshly nourishment is consumed which stores life's power when ingested, how much greater is the participation of a person who never changes and always maintains this benefit! The natural eye's reward is to grasp whatever is connatural to it; neither a finger nor any other bodily member can see because their roles differ. Therefore if the life belonging to intellectual nature befits participation in God, this life is not a result of contradictory elements unless in some way it is natural to the person [M.176] who desires it. Scripture says that man is made according to God's image [Gen 1.27], so that like sees like. The soul's [J.80] life consists in seeing God as we have said earlier. Since ignorance of the true good represents an overshadowing of the soul's vision which becomes so dense that the rays of truth do not penetrate the depth of ignorance, the privation of light imparts no life. It is said that the soul's true life is participation in the good; ignorance thwarts contemplation of God and does not allow the soul to participate in God.
No one can say that ignorance is necessary by referring to its origin and end; rather, we should understand the implication of such ignorance because it reveals information about the soul along with its own knowledge. Nothing we comprehend and say can express anything about it because opinions vary. If knowledge does not exist but is an activity of the mind, how much further removed is ignorance about the mind since it does not exist at all! Thus we would have no basis to inquire about the origin of what lacks existence.
Since we are speaking about life, the soul's participation in God and that knowledge which shares in it, ignorance not only lacks substance but is the extinction of knowledge. It follows that where participation in God does not apply, alienation from life results (an extreme case is corrupt deeds); as a [J.81] consequence, [God] works for our benefit by extending a cure to us. Such a remedy is indeed beneficial, and whoever is unaware of this cure fails to consider the mystery of the Gospel. Therefore when evil alienates a person from God who is life itself, the cure of this illness reconciles him to God who bestows life. This life which is rooted in hope belongs to human nature; it is not inimical to us and is intended as a reward for persons who have conducted themselves well. In fact, it is similar to that eye we have already mentioned. We do not claim that a prize exists for an eye which has been purified and a reward for a person endowed with the faculty of sight or a condemnation for someone blind. However, it necessarily follows that a person endowed with the faculty of sight cannot see when passion captivates him. Similarly, a blessed life and those who have cleansed their [M.177] souls' perceptions upon which lies a sore of ignorance are impeded from participating in the true light. Not to have it implies that we do not take part in life.
It is time to offer some reflections about this problem. If there is a reward for persons who have done good and if a infant who has died has done [J.82] neither good nor evil, how can such an infant expect any reward? We respond to those who consider the consequence of this matter because the good proper to human nature is intelligence and is a reward in and by itself. We can explain this by referring to two types of illnesses pertaining to vision. One person desiring to cure himself should apply a medicinal remedy provided that he has the patience. Another person with less discipline should employ baths and be subject to medical attention for restoring health to his eyes. We therefore believe that both persons have the fruit of their respective choices: the one deprived of light and the other person, its enjoyment. We apply the term reward when it does not partake of offensive behavior. Our remarks concern infants because enjoyment of this life belongs to human nature, but the illness of ignorance controls fleshly existence. However, the person who cleanses himself by an appropriate cure and removes the sore of ignorance from his clear-sighted soul is sincere and obtains a reward in this natural life. But the person who shuns purity of virtue and fosters an incurable illness of ignorance through deceptive pleasures becomes estranged from his true nature and does not share in life. One the other hand, a simple infant who is not ill [J.83] with regard to the soul's eyes participates in the light; he does not require cleansing because his soul has been healthy from birth.
This example bears a certain analogy to the life we envision. Just as at the first stage of life an infant [M.180] is nourished at the breast by milk, so does a person consume food when he becomes an adult. Thus I believe that the different stages of growth share a certain order and sequence according to one's capacity as he advances to the stage where he can enjoy a life of blessedness. We have learned this from Paul who in one way nourishes persons who have grown through virtue and in another way an infant who has not yet grown up: "I have fed you with milk, not solid food since you were not yet ready for it" [1Cor 3.2]. But for those persons who have attained maturity he says, "Solid food is for the mature" [Heb 5.14], referring to those who have trained their senses through practice.
Paul did not say that an infant and grown person are the same and that both are not ill [J.84] (for how can both enjoy the same food when they are so different?). However, when no illness afflicts them and they are alike, provided that they are free from passion, their enjoyment of food differs (For happiness consists in good words, generous deeds, giving leaders their due, allowing one's deeds to radiate by alms giving or by caring for one's wife and household. Life's pleasures also include meetings, spectacles, hunts, baths, gymnastic schools and pleasant activities of this sort. On the other hand, milk belongs to an infant content to remain quiet at its mother's breast since it is incapable of anything else.). In the same way, those who nourish souls in this life through virtue, as the Apostle says, exercise their mental faculties provided they follow a spiritual manner of living. By reason of instilled habit and personal strength they partake of divine nourishment to a greater or less extent according to their capacity. But for the soul which has not yet tasted virtue and is in an evil state, inasmuch as evil has not been present from the beginning, does not share [J.85] in virtue because the superior life which a person had from the beginning gives rise to knowledge of God and participation in him. Such a person nourishes his soul by the food of contemplation, and he develops it as much as possible.
We believe that the soul refrains from wickedness [M.181] by progressing in virtue, even though it has not yet fully shared in life, for it has not progressed through all life's stages. When speaking of the heavens, the Prophet [David] heard them declaring God's glory [Ps 18.2] and is led to contemplate the Lord of creation. By knowing him who is truly wise as seen in the wisdom of creation, a person is able to grasp through analogy the beauty of true light and comes to know by the earth's solidity [God] who made it stable and immense. He turns his mind to heaven's greatness and is led to the boundless, immeasurable power which embraces the universe. He also sees the sun's rays shining upon us and believes in God's providential concern which has reached us through them. If one light embraces the universe by a common luminous power and imparts itself to everything without distinction, then how much greater is the Maker of this light! "That he might be all in all" as the [J.86] Apostle says [1Cor 15.28] and give himself to every person according to their capacity. Anyone may consider an ear of corn, a plant's growth, a cluster of ripe grapes, the beauty of their ripeness either in their fruit or flower, a mountain herb spontaneously reaching to heaven on high, fountains at the base of mountains abundantly gushing from their hollows, rivers flowing these hollows, the sea which receives them and which stays the same bounded by the shore without overflowing its bounds. How do these observations which cannot be fully understood pertain to theological teachings about God? Can they delight a person who comprehends them and lead us to virtue? I mean geometry, astronomy, comprehension of the truth through numbers, the pursuit of what is unknown, the confirmation of what is understood and the philosophy of divinely inspired Scripture which cleanses persons instructed in divine mysteries.
Neither the person familiar with these matters nor the one led to comprehend transcendent reality through the world is simple, untrained and has an undisciplined [J.87] mind. Our argument shows that this state is not more blessed [M.184] according to the contradiction already presented, namely, that the person who is alive is better than the one who is not. For the person free from living in evil would not only be more blessed but would not possess it from the beginning. The Gospel has informed us of Judas where that which does not exist is evil [Mt 26.24]. Does a punishment which uses purification always extend to the depths of innate evil when pain does not apply to what does not exist? We therefore believe it is not right to compare an immature infant to a virtuous person.
You inquire about an infant snatched away from life and God's providential care. But if you ask about an illegitimate birth and an infant wrenched from its parents, perhaps you are asking if God is the source of evil deeds, an argument which proves to be groundless. If anyone who is carefully raised, taken care of and prayed for by his parents does not participate in life, his sickness ends in death (which alone is the cause). We offer this [J.88] example because [divine] providence is perfect; not only does it cure passions but provides a defence inasmuch it is offers genuine protection right from the beginning. For [God] who knows both the future and what will pass away thwarts an infant's development. God's foreknowledge does not hinder the evil about to be performed and takes into consideration our free will which can do evil in the future. This example is easy to illustrate. Consider a guest at a lavish banquet who is fully aware of the fare spread before him and can distinguish between what is well prepared and what is not. Furthermore, this guest has the ability to correctly choose by either accepting or rejecting the food set before him. He may have any combination of food as long as it does not make him ill; neither would he become stronger from becoming unpleasantly satiated by an wrong combination of ingredients.
We may also add that if a person is removed from a banquet due to drunkenness or is about to become intoxicated when the feast is about to end, the steward [J.89] in charge gracefully prevents any trouble from those who are intoxicated and reeling from too much alcohol. A person denied the enjoyment of a sweet odor [M.185] is not deprived of what he yearns for but condemns this injustice and is cheated by reason of his own jealousy and lack of foresight. But if anyone considers a repulsive circumstance of drunkenness when a person vomits, becomes drowsy and talks nonsense, he has the compassion to make him refrain from such immoderate behavior. Perhaps this example enables us to more easily keep our inquiry focused upon the subject of our discussion. What do we mean here? What about divine grace when parents apply all their effort and God prematurely snatches a child away before it has the chance to mature? To persons posing these questions we again refer a banquet and a table loaded with many fine delicacies (I believe that the skill of preparing food involves not just sweet and pleasant items but more bitter ingredients used by experts to stimulate appetites). Since not all things in life are agreeable but resemble either salt, something harsh, pungent, biting or [J.90] sharp for the purpose of being ingested and contributing to a rich sauce, the bowls are disguised with all sorts of ingredients. Some persons are pompous in their conceit, others provoke derangement among those who are drinking, while some vomit shameful apostasy by malicious questions. A person does not remain long at this banquet who does not comply to such behavior and leaves more quickly in order not to affect the gathering by gluttony. I believe this example reveals the operation of a perfect providence which not only cures conflicting passions but restrains them. We suggest that infants die because he [God] who makes all things removes circumstances for evil out of love for mankind. He does not give an occasion for choosing it through his providential capacity which knows the effect of a depraved inclination to produce bad deeds.
Often a person fond of banquets denounces the deceptive compulsion of greed which inclines them to evil. Thus in my opinion, they do not reveal the falsely veiled illness of avarice through its misleading cover. Many boost of expanding [J.91] their avarice even further in order to make their offspring more wealthy; they unmask their own illness which their unborn children do not necessarily inherit. Many lack successors for whom they have toiled so much; since these persons lack hope, they desire to rear numerous offspring who are unfettered by [M.188] this all-consuming illness.
If anyone freely chooses not to live well, for example, cruel tyrants, persons who are slaves to every undiscipline, inclined to anger and who do not refrain from incurable corrupt deeds, thieves, murderers, traitorous fathers, or if there is anything more detestable than putting to death their fathers, mothers, children and engaging in unlawful activities, and if such persons grow old in evil, how do such persons illumine our earlier observations? If an infant's premature death prevents him from craving this life's pleasures such as banquets, how does the banquet of life prophetically reveal that he behave in a drunken manner until reaching old age, does harm to himself, and inflicts his guests with the stale dregs of evil? (23) Our response is that God's providence does not fail to take these instances into account. The measure of evil gradually decreases through the various stages of life [J.92] and restores purity through the fullness of those who have been saved, a fact which is evident for those who realize God's power. For who is unattentive to God's nature while contemplating his works and is blind to his surpassing power by a flawed inclination of the will? If anyone wish to seek in a human manner, he will find it more difficult to discover the existence of heaven, earth and everything in creation and to lead the deceived soul back to life so that [God's] loving will might not be in vain. Whoever lacks divine assistance has an abundance of evil in life. The Maker of life has bestowed life, whereas one's free choice causes harm; without this inclination man would not be completely wicked. By itself, evil lacks existence but is the result of choice when one decides to live in sin. Thus if God does not cause evil, no longer would there be good reason for it to exist in a person.
But why, as you say, does [God's] compassionate providence snatch someone away before his will develops the ability to do evil and [J.93] permits this to happen to a person who has not yet been born [cf. Mt 26.24]? We respond to these more plausible objections by saying that there is often a better goal in mind for those who have lived well. Divinely inspired Scripture provides many witnesses where we learn about God's care for those worthy to share it. Since the text makes conjectures about unclear matters, our minds frequently lack proof. Not only is God gracious to parents responsible for bring a human being into existence by taking away a person from living immorally, but if nothing of the sort is found when they have been prematurely snatched away, it is sensible to consider which is more difficult: persons restrained from an immoral life or those known for living in sin. Many instances have taught us that nothing happens without God's aid. It is not without chance and logic that divine care administers everything when we know that God is the reason, wisdom, virtue and truth. He does not lack purpose, wisdom, virtue, truth, remains active and is not connected with anything untruthful.
Whether anyone is snatched away as a result of what we have already mentioned or for some other reason, [J.94] we should admit that these calamities happen for a better purpose. I know another reason taught by the wise Apostle, namely, that some persons abounding in iniquity were permitted to live [M.189] according to their own free choice [Rom 9.14,19]. For a person trained in the teaching of Letter to the Romans who has subjected himself to what is contrary to it, can be accused of evil. If evil is from God, nothing would then exist because he would be irresponsible for governing creation; thus a more profound examination of this matter would dissolve any objections. [Paul] says that God bestows to each person what he deserves and gives evil to some by his good intent [Rom 2.6ff]. Therefore he inflicted evil to newly born children, especially the Egyptian tyrant's son, to teach Israel by this calamity because there were very numerous [Rom 9.17]. God's power is equally made known through all persons and is beneficial for those worthy of it. He inflicts punishment due to evil behavior because it benefits the people which left Egypt, not that the Egyptians were evil in their ways. Therefore God's adversary, [J.95] Pharaoh, served as a champion and ally for those who did good; in this instance the two-fold operation of God became evident, and Israel obtained knowledge of it. He [Pharaoh] learned what is better for himself and seeing what is more lamentable and deserving of chastisement, realized God's superabundant wisdom which puts evil at the service of those who perform good deeds. Take the example of an artisan's work (if the Apostle's words confirm ours) who skillfully beats iron and makes it pliant for useful implements. Since this rigid material is not malleable, it is not easily softened by fire and fashioned into a functional instrument by reason of its hardness which is the goal of this trade; he uses an anvil so that by hitting iron, it becomes easily worked and soft, thereby resulting in a practical implement.
But someone may say that we cannot eradicate every depravity from life since virtuous persons cannot attain it by their own efforts. What, then, is the advantage for people to live dishonorably? Allow me to add something more sublime to these human views. The great David prophetically said that happiness lies in virtuous deeds when he contrasts the destruction of condemned persons with [J.96] those who are good: "The just man will rejoice when he sees vengeance on the impious; he will wash his hands in the blood of the sinner" [Ps 57.11]. He does not rejoice over their sorrows but realizes the result of living virtuously. These words signify that the acquisition of joy and its increase for virtuous persons is opposed to those living in evil. [David] says "He will wash his hands in the blood of the sinner," showing that purity attained by virtuous deeds consists in the destruction of sin. Washing signifies a reflection of purity. No one washes in blood except to defile himself, making the blessedness of virtue clear by this comparison with sinful persons.
We have added these remarks to the subject of our essay in order to remember them more easily. The death of infants prevents grief from afflicting them their life is over; neither do they share that virtue which belongs to those who have been purified because God's foresight had prevented them from an excess of evil should they have lived. The evil path of some persons thwarts this because thanks to their parents, they are prevented from doing harm. But in some instances, their parents do not teach them to confide in God nor to live properly. Often a person known for his cruel behavior would go unchecked, but a vile death prevents this. Also, if some attained [J.97] the highest degree of depravity, consideration of the Apostle's words offers consolation by mentioning [God] who made everything in wisdom and who brought about good through evil [cf. Ps 103.24]. If anyone persists in immoderate evil and is of no value for God's purpose, we mention those who have lived well who, as the Prophet [David] suggests, are by no means insignificant nor unsuitable for revealing God's providence.
Do I believe there can be forgiveness of sins after death? I don't know really, but if there is,I believe it is through the intercessions of the Church.
The Church views Hell as eternal separation from God, which is most likely as you know it to be in Orthodoxy. Purgatory is different however; it is part of God in so far as it is an essential element of His plan for our salvation.I guess I might feel more comfortable with the concept of purgatory, if I knew for sure if the RCC sees it as something apart or seperate from God. And also if the RCC believes Hell to be seperation from God.
That is exactly right.Rising_Suns said:We believe it is necessary because nothing impure can enter heaven, but as we stand now, we still have a sinfull nature.
Okay. In Orthodoxy, Hell is not considered an actual seperation from God....But God Himself is Paradise for the saints and God Himself is Hell for the sinners. The energy of God will fall on us all, we will be showered in His love, which is likened to fire.Rising_Suns said:The Church views Hell as eternal separation from God, which is most likely as you know it to be in Orthodoxy. Purgatory is different however; it is part of God in so far as it is an essential element of His plan for our salvation.
In Orthodoxy, are you not encouraged to pray for the deceased? This is exactly why the Catholic Church prays for the dead; to intercede and request of God mercy on the souls in purgatory.
hmmm, this is interesting. Do you happen to have any writings from the Church Fathers on this theology?In Orthodoxy, Hell is not considered an actual seperation from God....But God Himself is Paradise for the saints and God Himself is Hell for the sinners. The energy of God will fall on us all, we will be showered in His love, which is likened to fire.
We pray for them to bear witness to the Glory of God that they brought forth while alive.
God is light, the highest, the unapproachable, the ineffable, that can neither be conceived in the mind nor uttered with the lips, that gives life to every reasoning creature. He is in the world of thought what the sun is in the world of sense, presenting Himself to our minds in proportion as we are cleansed and loved in proportion as He is presented to our mind, and again, conceived in proportion as we love Him, Himself contemplating and comprehending Himself, and pouring Himself out upon what is external to Him. That light, I mean, which is contemplated in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, whose riches is Their unity of nature, and the one outleaping of Their brightness. A second light is the angel, a kind of outflow or communication of that first light, drawing its illumination from its inclination and obedience thereto; and I know not whether its illumination is distributed according to the order of its state, or whether its order is due to the respective measures of its illumination. A third light is man, a light which is visible to external objects. For they call man light because of the faculty of speech in us. And the name is applied again to those of us who are more like God, and who approach God more nearly than others. I also acknowledge another light, by which the primeval darkness was driven away or pierced. It was the first of all the visible creation to be called into existence and it irradiates the whole universe, the circling orbit of the stars, and all the heavenly beacon fires.
And what then? The end will come suddenly in a day for which you did not look, and in an hour that you are not aware of, and then you will have for a companion lack of grace, and you will be famished in the midst of all those riches of goodness, though you ought to reap the opposite fruit from the opposite course, a harvest by diligence, and refreshment from the font, like the thirsty hart that runs in haste to the spring, and quenches the labour of his race by water, and not to be in Ishmael's case, dried up for want of water, or as the fable has it, punished by thirst in the midst of a spring. It is a sad thing to let the market day go by and then to seek for work. It is a sad thing to let the manna pass and then to long for food. It is a sad thing to take a counsel too late, and to become sensible of the loss only when it is impossible to repair it, that is, after our departure hence, and the bitter closing of the acts of each man's life, and the punishment of sinners, and the glory of the purified. Therefore do not delay in coming to grace, but hasten, lest the robber outstrip you, lest the adulterer pass you by, lest the insatiate be satisfied before you, lest the murderer seize the blessing first, or the tax-gatherer or the fornicator, or any of these violent ones who take the Kingdom of Heaven by force. For it suffers violence willingly, and is tyrannized over through goodness.
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