Question on free will

[sdowney717]

Jesus says, If the Son makes you free you will be free indeed.
That is real freedom. Don't use your freedom to do wrong things and grieve the Holy Spirit. Dont use your freedom to teach others licentious grace. That would be like saying I am saved, I can do anything I want even murder, sexual sins, blaspheme. Jesus Paul and John and Jude etc... preached and wrote many times people that do those things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Jude

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now please note when Jesus spoke the words saying He will make you free, Jesus was talking to slaves of Satan. Satan's slaves are captured, owned by Satan to do his will.
2 Tim 2

24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This is the basis of understanding Calvinism, meaning you can not choose to do good due to your nature. Notice also, Jesus is addressing people who had believed Him and what He said! It takes more than a belief, it takes a relationship with Jesus to be saved. This is related to the idea of God calling and choosing us in Him, after all the demons believe also!

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Jesus says

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

Jesus in v34 says they were SLAVES of Sin, a slave does not have freewill choices, being forced by their owner to do the owners will. So before you come to Christ, your a slave of sin and unable to choose to do good. Your locked on a hell bound destiny. Unless Jesus chooses to reveal His true self to you, who the Father is and who the Son is, then your free will is illusory, you commit sin due to your free will being bound to Satan's will and your DESIRE is to follow after Satan.

Luke 10

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

And John 6

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me.

IF God does not teach you about Jesus and If Jesus does not will to reveal HIM to you, then you will not come to Jesus to be saved.

A lot of this is the basis of understanding what people mean by Calvinism.

Jesus also says this of our NEW relationship with Him.
John 15

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

NOW LET ME ASK YOU, do you understand these things as Jesus has so said?
Do you have the spiritual ears to hear what the Spirit of God is speaking?
I hope you do, for without that you're without hope. It is God who reveals and saves us by His mercy, We can not come to God on our own. As you can see Jesus HIMSELF says He choose us, we did not chose Him. This idea percolates through Scripture.

 

[Krillin]

Just elaborating on my previous post.

Think of it like this: If you are in love with someone, would you lock them in a room so that they could never be with someone other than you? Or would it not be a greater example of love by allowing them freedom to actually choose you?

This is the reason for God putting the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve would have been blind puppets otherwise - which isn't an example of love.

John 13:34 - 35 says "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you are also to love one another. by this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Pay attention to what's in bold. We are to love everyone just as Jesus (who is God) has loved us. In that case, are we to show love by simply picking and choosing the supposed "elect" whilst ignoring everyone else?

Also, Jesus says we are to do this so as that ALL people will know that we are his disciples. Again, not bound to any elect group.

Some will argue that God actually intended Adam and Eve to sin, thus being able to convey his mercy to them. Well if Jesus (again, who is God) shows his love to us in this manner, than are we not also to do the same according to what the verse states above? With that belief, there is no other example of God showing love. Jesus already said in Matthew 18:6 "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

I'm going to finish off by presenting the most quoted verse in the bible:

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

It is blatantly stating that Jesus loves everyone. He does not pick and choose. The word "whoever" is being used in the context of the "world".

 

[Albion]

Just elaborating on my previous post.

Think of it like this: If you are in love with someone, would you lock them in a room so that they could never be with someone other than you? Or would it not be a greater example of love by allowing them freedom to actually choose you?

But it's not that simple. For your example to be correct, you also have to stipulate that that someone is removed to Yemen before he ever sees you and no one tells him about you. Now you can anticipate him finding his way to you because that would be real love. As for everyone else, of course they don't matter--according to your analogy.

 

[Krillin]

you also have to stipulate that that someone is removed to Yemen

...what?

Now you can anticipate him finding his way to you because that would be real love.

My analogy about locking your lover in a room was to help explain Adam and eve's situation. They already had a relationship with God.

As for everyone else, of course they don't matter--according to your analogy.

I don't understand?


EDIT: I would like to add that it would be best that everyone here agree to disagree. If we wish to discuss this it should be done in PM. Not on someone else's thread where they are seeking advice.

 

[Albion]

...what?

My analogy about locking your lover in a room was to help explain Adam and eve's situation. They already had a relationship with God.

Sorry. That would alter things, I agree. I was thinking you were referring to the exercise of freewill by any of us. If that were the case, we'd have to include in the analogy something that incorporates a level of knowledge much less than that we associate with Adam and Eve. I chose Yemen to represent that.

 

[Reborn1977]

I came across a thread today that said something about that supposedly God planned our lives before we were born...How is that? We have free will, which means God shouldn't plan your life (unless you ask Him to have a plan in store for you), only you're allowed to do whatever you like to it and hold responsibility for it, not God. I know that God knows what choices we're going to make, but that shouldn't mean he planned our lives and we have a destiny we're stuck with. I don't know where this person got this idea but it kinda worried me. What do you guys think?

When I have taught on freewill, I have had to condense something that is not very easily understood. God does know, but has not planned for us, our entire lives before we live one day. God is all-knowing but not all-controlling. The fatalistic idea of predestination, from a negative perspective, is simply not a balanced view of Scripture. People take one concept or idea from Scripture, take it out of balance and attempt to apply it to a lot of things it does not apply to at all.

Therefore, you should be relieved to know you are not ‘stuck in a certain destiny’ in the extreme sense. You should also be concerned to know you have a responsibility before God to be a good steward with the life (meaning lifetime and lifespan) He has given you.

Here are two illustrations I use when teaching.
1 – Life is like a box, we come in at a certain point and place and we will go out at a certain point and place both of which are God’s Will – we can spent all our time going in circles, bumping against the walls, or we can take a straight path from the entrance to the exit - that part is our choice. Now this can be applied to overall life, meaning the span of our life but this illustration can also be applied to a specific “calling” God has for an individual, which will be fulfilled. How we travel in and out of God Will is often our choice – straight line or curvy road.
2 – Our life to God is like a movie He has already watched. He knows all that will take place, He knows all the dialogue and He has cut the movie as He desires but the movie must still be shown and we have no idea until God reveals it what comes next. (Now for all those looking to criticize, do not read more into that illustration than I wrote.)

I realize this is in no way an exhaustive answer as volumes can, and have been, written on freewill and God’s Sovereignty. However, I sure hope it helped a little.


This response comes from someone who has been in Fulltime Christian Ministry for 20 years and I long to help those who have misguided or misdirected by ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

i think God has a plan for your life that's based in the reality of what He knows you will choose; otherwise when we fail to follow His plan it would only be because He had unrealistic expectations of us


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

you mean that God lowers His expectations for some people so they won't become disapointed....

not to participate in debate in the advice forum, but to clarify - He knows you better than you know you - He isn't disappointed when you mess up because He doesn't have unrealistic expectations of you. this is not to say that He condones your mistakes - just that He is smarter than you

 

[OntheHorizon]

I don't think creatures who are planned and moved by their creator have these large stopping points outside of the plan where they ponder theirselves and their reality.

 

[REPHAIAHPEDAHEL]

God has a wonderful plan for your life but you can choose not to go by his plan by your free will. God doesn't violate free will. He will never force anything on you.

 

[dandelionnn]

Thanks guys, especially to the ones that really explained this topic to me.
So I don't really know what Calvinism is, but if they call themselves Christians...well, let's just say I don't agree with that. I don't agree with how God already predetermined who's going to Hell and who's going to Heaven...people either follow Him, or they don't. If God created us just to suffer if he knew we were going to Hell, well that's just not a loving God like the Bible always says and so the Bible is a liar if you think that way.
I believe in forgiveness...and if you go to Him and ask for it and REALLY make a relationship happen with Him, then he should LOVE that, and will choose you as well...why would some of you people think that He would ignore us if he chooses to? That's not loving, that's just snobby. Where do some of you get your information from anyway?...I'm interested in knowing more. I mean duh, doesn't the Bible say that if you follow the rules then you go to heaven? So what makes you think He chooses those that need to go to hell without giving them a chance first???????????????

 

[asiyreh]

Ok so your an armenian, so don't worry about it half the church is.

If you're interested in the biblical doctrines of Calvinism. Then there's a great teacher called James White that I would recommend.

An Introduction to Reformed Theology (James White) - YouTube

Once you've studied Calvinism enough, and before you become a really grumpy person. I recommend that you instantly unlearn what you have learned by studying Molinism instead. The hidden third option that everybody misses.

Unfortunately you have to learn calvinism before you completely understand it.

Dr. William Lane Craig does some excellent studies into this topic in his doctrines of God series.

Molinism is basically this though. God is the conductor in the high tower He sees all the trains, all the possible tracks and where they go. Your choice his ultimate plan.

 

[Reborn1977]

Thanks guys, especially to the ones that really explained this topic to me.
So I don't really know what Calvinism is, but if they call themselves Christians...well, let's just say I don't agree with that. I don't agree with how God already predetermined who's going to Hell and who's going to Heaven...people either follow Him, or they don't. If God created us just to suffer if he knew we were going to Hell, well that's just not a loving God like the Bible always says and so the Bible is a liar if you think that way.
I believe in forgiveness...and if you go to Him and ask for it and REALLY make a relationship happen with Him, then he should LOVE that, and will choose you as well...why would some of you people think that He would ignore us if he chooses to? That's not loving, that's just snobby. Where do some of you get your information from anyway?...I'm interested in knowing more. I mean duh, doesn't the Bible say that if you follow the rules then you go to heaven? So what makes you think He chooses those that need to go to hell without giving them a chance first???????????????

The TRUTH as represented in the Holy Word of God, the Bible, does not completely support Calvinism or Arminianism as being "completely" biblical sound doctrine. The TRUTH is actually found in a balance of the two. Whereas, most people view them as opposed to one another, they are not completely opposed to one another they each have truths and errors within their interpenetration of Scripture.

Quality online resources can be questionable but the Grace Online Library does do a nice comparisons of the two.

Sadly, people who label themselves as either Calvinism or Arminianism truly have only a shallow understanding of what that means. Calvinism is currently under fire among its own people as they struggle to redefine their doctrine to line up with the overall belief of those within the group - - I speak now on a upper denominational level of leadership. It is however a matter of public record should anyone wish to pursue looking into their plight. [For the purpose of unity, I make it my policy to never mention denominations specially if at all possible.] Their struggle with the issue is tearing denominations apart, which in the end may not be a bad thing as their is only one church - Christ's Church - the Body of Christ.


This response comes from someone who has been in Fulltime Christian Ministry for 20 years and I long to help those who have misguided or misdirected by ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’.