Question on free will vs. predestination

[MormonFriend]

The subject of free will, or agency, is one that intrigues me.

I have looked at this perspective in relation to modern Christianity, and I hope that the good Christians which might respond will enlighten me if I have this wrong.
Modern or Orthodox Christianity teaches that we were created by God from nothing. Everything about us began at birth. They teach that it is our free will that causes us to sin. When people are condemned to hell because they reject Christ, it is a factor of their free will.



This perspective confuses me.If we were created from nothing, then everything that we are is the result of how God made us. Free will is not an integral part of us, it is a principal or law that we all abide by equally. Free will is the exact same thing to everyone, so how we use or apply it is strictly a factor of who or what we are. And that is a direct result of what God made us to be.



So, in Modern Christianity, where is the justice of a God that condemns so many to hell for reasons where the individual had no control or say so in how they were created? It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc.

Thank you for your answers.
M. F.

 

[thanksjesus]

Hi Morman Friend.

Let me make sure what you are implying: God makes some people pre-destined not to be equiped to make the decision to follow Christ?

Peace and grace be multiplied to you.

 

[MormonFriend]

Hi Morman Friend.

Let me make sure what you are implying: God makes some people pre-destined not to be equiped to make the decision to follow Christ?

Peace and grace be multiplied to you.

As I have heard it explained to me, many times as I listen to Christian radio programs, how you put it is pretty close to what I understand, or conclude.

We were brought into this world, and everything we are is by God's design. I don't know how to define what specifically it is within each of us that causes us to make different choices when it comes to right and wrong, or good and bad. I call will call it our "Character" for now, and please correct me if I should change that.

So our Character is by God's design and creation. Our Character comes into contact with Free Will. Obviously, Free Will is exactly the same for everyone. It does not vary. Since outcome varies when we come into contact with Free Will, then the variable must have been in our Character. God created our Character, so how can He punish His creation for what He created?

(Peace and Grace to you exponentially!)

 

[Jinn_Ku]

Shalom,

" I don't know how to define what specifically it is within each of us that causes us to make different choices when it comes to right and wrong, or good and bad."

That, my friend, is definded as free will. Defined by Dictionary.com, free will is:

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

So, in Modern Christianity, where is the justice of a God that condemns so many to hell for reasons where the individual had no control or say so in how they were created? It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc.

If there were no free will (if we are all predestined) then God would not be just. So either our undertanding of God is wrong and He is unjust, or we are not predestined and have the ability to choose God's path or another path.

"So our Character is by God's design and creation. Our Character comes into contact with Free Will. Obviously, Free Will is exactly the same for everyone. It does not vary. Since outcome varies when we come into contact with Free Will, then the variable must have been in our Character. God created our Character, so how can He punish His creation for what He created?"

When using the definition of "free will" this statement is incoherent. Could you please try restating this using the the actual definition of "free will" because I can't make heads or tales out of it the way it is. Then I'll try to answer any questions you have. (I love this topic too )



Have a nice day.

 

[chilehed]

Free will is not an integral part of us, it is a principal or law that we all abide by equally. M. F.

I think that this assumption is erroneous.

According to the catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 357:
"Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead."

This would seem to indicate that the capacity for free will is indeed an integral part of our nature. Otherwise we would, by definition, be unable to freely give ourselves and enter into communion with others.

God bless.

www.catholic.com

 

[Serapha]

Modern or Orthodox Christianity teaches that we were created by God from nothing. Everything about us began at birth. They teach that it is our free will that causes us to sin. When people are condemned to hell because they reject Christ, it is a factor of their free will.



This perspective confuses me.If we were created from nothing, then everything that we are is the result of how God made us. Free will is not an integral part of us, it is a principal or law that we all abide by equally. Free will is the exact same thing to everyone, so how we use or apply it is strictly a factor of who or what we are. And that is a direct result of what God made us to be.



So, in Modern Christianity, where is the justice of a God that condemns so many to hell for reasons where the individual had no control or say so in how they were created? It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc.

Hi there!



Here's an example I use to help understand free will and predestination....





Let's say I am a cucumber. God created me (from nothing) as a cucumber and I will be a cucumber until the day I die. God predestined me to be His cucumber, and when I believed that... God plucked me from the vine (world), washed the dirt (sin) off me, and set me on solid ground to begin working.


That's predestination.


I was created to be God's cucumber and that is exactly what I am. Other cucumbers may never believe that God predestined them to be cucumbers on solid ground, so they just stay in the dirt never believing that God will pick them up out of the dirt.


As a cucumber, I follow in believer's baptism ... so I get dunked in the brine (water AND spirit)... and I come out a pickle...


Now ... I can't ever get rid of being that pickle (eternal security) But as a pickle, I can choose to be a pickle working for the Kingdom, or I can choose to sit there and rot my life away. Either way, I am a pickel.

That's free will.


In either case, once I become a pickle, I can never go back to being the same type of cucumber that I began to be in my earlier life. As a pickle, I am still a cucumber, but a newly created type of cucumber called a pickle because I've been changed.... not just rearranged, but a whole new product.


Now, you asked,

"where is the justice of a God that condemns so many to hell for reasons where the individual had no control or say so in how they were created? It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc."


1. God doesn't condemn anyone to hell. Every person is predestined to be adopted sons of God, not residents of hell. But by their own choice, they choose their eternal home.

2. While a person has no control in "how" they were created, they do have control in how they will respond to every action in this world, including salvation.

3. "respector of persons" and "compassion" are not attributes of God.


~malaka~

 

[Reformationist]

God created our Character, so how can He punish His creation for what He created?

Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

Your question and this question from Scripture sound remarkably the same, don't they?

The only way to solve this dilemma is to first understand that we are God's creation, created to bring glory to His Son. It often seems as if Christians have a hard time understanding how a righteous God could create people that He knew were going to end up in hell. They pose this seemingly difficult question because they make the inaccurate assumption that if God designed for someone to end up in hell then there's no way God could be righteous. In essence, they are trying to protect God from being accused of being unrighteous.

Those who have a hard time with this seem to operate under the assumption that the focal point of the Gospel is them and their glory. They assume that because THEY can't fathom God ever intentionally creating someone with the intent that they be sent to hell then it must not be possible. News flash!!! It does happen. Every single person who ever ends up in hell is there by design. This is not to say that God is at fault. To be sure, those that are comdemned earn their eternal sentence. However, their destination is not an accident.

So, how does Scripture address this question?

Romans 9:20,21
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

So, we have Scripture itself telling us not only that God does make "from the same lump, one vessel for honor and another for dishonor," It also is telling us that we, as the created vessel, have no right to question the righteousness of God's actions if He has created some to go to hell.

Let me clarify that I am not telling you that you shouldn't be trying to understand this. I'm just urging you to make sure that when faced with an apparent conflict between your understanding and the veritable righteousness of God it is your understanding that must yield, not the righteousness of God.

So, our next logical question is, "Why would God create one being to be honored and another to be saved?" Again Scripture comes to our rescue because it immediately provides a clear and concise answer to this:

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So, according to the divine Word of God, we can now see that God does make some people with the intent that they be dishonored and destroyed and He does it "to make His power known and make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory."

Again, it is important to acknowledge that if the idea that God creates someone with the intent that they be destroyed and dishonored that you ensure that it doesn't cause you to question the holiness of God.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Here's an example I use to help understand free will and predestination....





Let's say I am a cucumber. God created me (from nothing) as a cucumber and I will be a cucumber until the day I die. God predestined me to be His cucumber, AND WHEN I BELIEVED THAT...

You see MormonFriend, this is exactly what I was referring to. According to Malaka, God, the sovereign creator of ALL things created, to include Malaka, predestined her to be something, His cucumber, but is powerless to make that come to pass unless Malaka the cucumber believes that He did so. Who is the central figure of the Gospel in this scenario, God or Malaka? The terribly sad thing is that according to Malaka and those who hold similar ideas about God, God has the exact same plan for everyone of us, "every person is predestined to be adopted sons of God, not residents of hell," yet the thing that foils the soverign, eternal Plan of the Almighty is that the little cucumber "never believed that God predestined them to be on solid ground." How pitiful a view of the Almighty. If this were the case how could we trust anything the Gospel tells us? If God's ability to bring His sovereign Plan to fruition is subject to whether or not the little cucumber believes then any part of it could be undone. I certainly hope you have more faith in your Creator than to think His ability to bring to pass what He sovereignly desires is subject to the whims of His creation.

Now ... I can't ever get rid of being that pickle (eternal security)

Let me get this straight. The catalyst allowing God to make you His cucumber was your belief but now that you've exercised your free will and been turned into a pickle you are unable to exercise your free will and return to being a cucumber in the dirt? What in the world am I saying?

But as a pickle, I can choose to be a pickle working for the Kingdom, or I can choose to sit there and rot my life away. Either way, I am a pickel.

That's free will.

If you freely choose to be a pickle that sits there and rots your life away are you still going to be a pickle that remains God's pickle?

It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc."

See MormonFriend...Malaka cannot fathom how God could maintain His godly attributes if He condemned anyone to hell. God is suddenly remade in the image of Malaka's misunderstanding of the Gospel.

1. God doesn't condemn anyone to hell. Every person is predestined to be adopted sons of God, not residents of hell. But by their own choice, they choose their eternal home.

I have a couple of questions for you Malaka. First, do those that end up in Heaven end up there because they made the right choice? Secondly, why do some choose Heaven and some choose Hell?

2. While a person has no control in "how" they were created, they do have control in how they will respond to every action in this world, including salvation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "they do have control in how they will respond to every action in this world, including salvation" but I think I agree with this, though I'm sure not in the way you meant it. I think every individual makes a choice to either obey God or disobey God. Though they don't make these choices freely they do make them uncoerced. Those that disobey God do so because they desire to do so. Those that obey God obey Him because He has given them, by regenerating them, a desire to follow His commandments.


MormonFriend, I strongly encourage you to study the Word and when doing so put the glory and sovereign control of creation in the hands of Him who created all things for His glory, the Lord.

God bless

 

[Rafael]

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

When I was a child and would ask a question, sometimes I'd hear the phrase, "this is for me to know and for you to find out". I believe that predestination is just like that - God knows and we find out. We are not God, and can never fully understand His power over time and eternity. If I had a time machine, I might be able to travel to the future and tell how things comes out, but I don't and never will.
For me, it is best to imagine God as He says He is, and if He destroys something, I can imagine with full confidence that no injustice has been done and that all things are judged according to His knowledge and character - not man's, and when man does the judging for God it hardly ever sounds right and often misrepresents God.
"Love believes all things", giving the benefit of the doubt to any situation or question, and God is love.
The statement that God created vessels of dishonor takes into account His foreknowledge which we do not have nor understand any of the ramifications of when trying to express in terms we can comprehend. It's like trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, as God's thoughts and ways are so much higher than ours.

 

[Reformationist]

For me, it is best to imagine God as He says He is, and if He destroys something, I can imagine with full confidence that no injustice has been done and that all things are judged according to His knowledge and character - not man's, and when man does the judging for God it hardly ever sounds right and often misrepresents God.

Very nice raphe.

"Love believes all things", giving the benefit of the doubt to any situation or question, and God is love. The statement that God created vessels of dishonor takes into account His foreknowledge which we do not have nor understand any of the ramifications of when trying to express in terms we can comprehend. It's like trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, as God's thoughts and ways are so much higher than ours.

I will acknowledge that God's divine Plan is very often misinterpreted but I would like to point out that the view that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of future events is often misleading. Scripture clearly states that these vessels were PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR DESTRUCTION. They weren't just prepared. They were prepared for the purpose of showing God's power, even over those who reject Him. Pharaoh, an example which Scripture Itself gives, is the perfect example of this. God sovereignly put Pharaoh into power and made him the most powerful human ever. Many would ask how Pharaoh could have attained such heights being that he despised God for the entirity of his life. The answer is simple because Scripture makes it clear. God put him in that position so that His name would be declared in all the earth. What do you think the common people thought about God when even Pharaoh, whom they viewed as the closest thing to sovereign they could imagine, was humbled and eventually destoryed by the power of the Almighty? Additonally, the entire opening section of Romans 9, which is the chapter being referenced here, clearly indicates that God's choice is NOT based on man's future actions, but rather HIS PURPOSE ACCORDING TO ELECTION:

Romans 9:11
for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls...

The twist that many try to put on this verse in order to maintain the view that God chooses based on knowledge of future events is that God does not base it on works already done. The passage does not say that and to enter that qualifier into Scripture is to change the clear meaning of the verse. Why is it clear? If you look at the verses that follow that bold pronouncement they can ONLY make sense if v. 11 is read in light of the understanding that God chooses based on His own council and desire to glorify the Godhead, not upon the actions of man, past, present, or future. In v. 14 Paul raises the objection, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" If v. 11 meant that God chooses someone based on THEIR future acceptance or rejection of Him it would make no sense for Paul to anticipate that people would take issue with God about His choice. On the contrary, if v. 11 means as the free will activists claim then God would be completely justified in not choosing someone if He knew they were just going to reject Him anyway. Paul would have never raised that argument. The reason he raised it is the same reason he raised the objection in v. 19 as I stated in post #7. The natural, fallen response to the idea that God alone makes the choice about our destiny, and then holds us accountable for it (v. 19), is considered unfair and unrighteous. So, Paul, being the teacher that he is, anticipates this and asks that very question, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" Paul's response, "Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." I'm not sure how it can get much clearer than that. Paul plainly states that God's decision to have mercy and compassion on someone is NOT based on their desire (him who wills), or their works (him who runs). It is based on God's righteous, sovereign, divine perrogative to create a people that He had eternally planned to set apart to the glory of His Son.

God bless

 

[Rafael]

Very nice raphe.

I will acknowledge that God's divine Plan is very often misinterpreted but I would like to point out that the view that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of future events is often misleading. Scripture clearly states that these vessels were PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR DESTRUCTION. They weren't just prepared. They were prepared for the purpose of showing God's power, even over those who reject Him. Pharaoh, an example which Scripture Itself gives, is the perfect example of this. God sovereignly put Pharaoh into power and made him the most powerful human ever. Many would ask how Pharaoh could have attained such heights being that he despised God for the entirity of his life. The answer is simple because Scripture makes it clear. God put him in that position so that His name would be declared in all the earth. What do you think the common people thought about God when even Pharaoh, whom they viewed as the closest thing to sovereign they could imagine, was humbled and eventually destoryed by the power of the Almighty? Additonally, the entire opening section of Romans 9, which is the chapter being referenced here, clearly indicates that God's choice is NOT based on man's future actions, but rather HIS PURPOSE ACCORDING TO ELECTION:

Romans 9:11
for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls...

The twist that many try to put on this verse in order to maintain the view that God chooses based on knowledge of future events is that God does not base it on works already done. The passage does not say that and to enter that qualifier into Scripture is to change the clear meaning of the verse. Why is it clear? If you look at the verses that follow that bold pronouncement they can ONLY make sense if v. 11 is read in light of the understanding that God chooses based on His own council and desire to glorify the Godhead, not upon the actions of man, past, present, or future. In v. 14 Paul raises the objection, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" If v. 11 meant that God chooses someone based on THEIR future acceptance or rejection of Him it would make no sense for Paul to anticipate that people would take issue with God about His choice. On the contrary, if v. 11 means as the free will activists claim then God would be completely justified in not choosing someone if He knew they were just going to reject Him anyway. Paul would have never raised that argument. The reason he raised it is the same reason he raised the objection in v. 19 as I stated in post #7. The natural, fallen response to the idea that God alone makes the choice about our destiny, and then holds us accountable for it (v. 19), is considered unfair and unrighteous. So, Paul, being the teacher that he is, anticipates this and asks that very question, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" Paul's response, "Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." I'm not sure how it can get much clearer than that. Paul plainly states that God's decision to have mercy and compassion on someone is NOT based on their desire (him who wills), or their works (him who runs). It is based on God's righteous, sovereign, divine perrogative to create a people that He had eternally planned to set apart to the glory of His Son.

God bless

I've always appreciated your eloquence and knowledge concerning predestination, and one or two scriptures may be a witness, but do not tell the whole story or reflect the balance of scriptures as to God's character of love and His will towards His creation. Predestination is a riddle men toy with, to try and understand, and invariably end up imagining God as unjust by the limitations of their understanding. That's my opinion, as I've been through the list of questions about predestination till I've had a head ache, and I prefer to not mistakenly portray God as cruel (even in my imagination) since my understanding may be a bit beneath His concerning vessels created - just a bit (LOL). I don't make excuses for Him, but neither do I presume any injustice or evil done by Him - but will be willing and open minded to imagine the opposite - not having an evil imagination towards God.
Because God knows those who will refuse Him, being Omnicient, He indeed is able to envolve that refusal into a plan, a prepared plan, and a preparation of a lamb slain before the foundations in the lamb of God - Jesus. He is able to do these thing and we are barely able to comprehend them for their glory.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[Serapha]

I have a couple of questions for you Malaka. First, do those that end up in Heaven end up there because they made the right choice? Secondly, why do some choose Heaven and some choose Hell?


I think every individual makes a choice to either obey God or disobey God. Though they don't make these choices freely they do make them uncoerced. Those that disobey God do so because they desire to do so. Those that obey God obey Him because He has given them, by regenerating them, a desire to follow His commandments.

Hi there!



"First, do those that end up in Heaven end up there because they made the right choice?"

There is only one right choice.




"why do some choose Heaven and some choose Hell?"

Because they cannot have their cake and eat it too.


"I think every individual makes a choice to either obey God or disobey God. Though they don't make these choices freely they do make them uncoerced. Those that disobey God do so because they desire to do so. Those that obey God obey Him because He has given them, by regenerating them, a desire to follow His commandments."

As always, you are entitled to your opinion.


~malaka~

 

[Serapha]

If you freely choose to be a pickle that sits there and rots your life away are you still going to be a pickle that remains God's pickle?

Hi there!





Yes.


Need scriptures?

Let me get this straight. The catalyst allowing God to make you His cucumber was your belief but now that you've exercised your free will and been turned into a pickle you are unable to exercise your free will and return to being a cucumber in the dirt? What in the world am I saying?

OSAS.

Need Scriptures?




~malaka~

 

[MormonFriend]

" I don't know how to define what specifically it is within each of us that causes us to make different choices when it comes to right and wrong, or good and bad."That, my friend, is definded as free will. Defined by Dictionary.com, free will is: The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

You are throwing a curve ball at me here by combining my original post with my reply to “thanksjesus,” where I was trying to reword a phrase in relation to his thought. To adjust it again to your train of thought I would say this:" I don't know how to define what specifically it is within each of us that causes us to use our free will differently, when it comes to right and wrong, or good and bad."

So, in Modern Christianity, where

is the justice of a God that condemns so many to hell for reasons where the individual had no control or say so in how they were created? It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc.

If there were no free will (if we are all predestined) then God would not be just. So either our undertanding of God is wrong and He is unjust, or we are not predestined and have the ability to choose God's path or another path.

This seems incomplete in options to me. As I tried to explain it in my first post, I would say that free will is a solid standard, and God being just is also a given. I agree that we can not be predestined in any sense that interferes with free will. Yet there is something that is distinct in every individual (I first called it "character”) that results in positive or negative use of our free will. Did God create our individual character? Looking back at my post, “being created from nothing” was not factored in your options. So could it be said that the understanding of God is wrong on how He creates? How does Christianity arrive at the conclusion that we were created from nothing?

 

[Rafael]

So, in Modern Christianity, where

is the justice of a God that condemns so many to hell for reasons where the individual had no control or say so in how they were created? It defies many of the given attributes of God, such as compassionate, not a respecter of persons, etc. This seems incomplete in options to me. As I tried to explain it in my first post, I would say that free will is a solid standard, and God being just is also a given. I agree that we can not be predestined in any sense that interferes with free will. Yet there is something that is distinct in every individual (I first called it "character”) that results in positive or negative use of our free will. Did God create our individual character? Looking back at my post, “being created from nothing” was not factored in your options. So could it be said that the understanding of God is wrong on how He creates? How does Christianity arrive at the conclusion that we were created from nothing?

Actually, we were created from dirt or clay. "Adam" means red earth. God created everything else from Himself, as He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. The Bible also states that we live inside of God:

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Your assumption that God is unjust is not scripturally correct. Each person knows in their heart right from wrong (the law) and are judged according to what they have been given. Even if a person has never known the Gospel, they know that there is a God and the law is written in their consciences. God is incapable of injustice no matter how limited our understanding is in regards to Him.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ;

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[MormonFriend]

Actually, we were created from dirt or clay. "Adam" means red earth. God created everything else from Himself, as He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. The Bible also states that we live inside of God:

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Your assumption that God is unjust is not scripturally correct. Each person knows in their heart right from wrong (the law) and are judged according to what they have been given. Even if a person has never known the Gospel, they know that there is a God and the law is written in their consciences. God is incapable of injustice no matter how limited our understanding is in regards to Him.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ;

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Please, don't misunderstand me. I never meant to imply that God is unjust! His justice is without question a reliable standard. I am asking how in Christian perspective God could be just under the parameters of doctrine that I equated with it.

Yes, physically our creation is from the elements of the earth. The body is a temple where our spirit resides, and if kept pure, the Holy Ghost can dwell within.

Spiritually speaking, was the spirit of Man created from nothing? It seems to me that it is the spirit of a person that has the free will.

 

[Reformationist]

I've always appreciated your eloquence and knowledge concerning predestination, and one or two scriptures may be a witness, but do not tell the whole story or reflect the balance of scriptures as to God's character of love and His will towards His creation.

Thanks for the compliment and just for the record, I do not think that one or two Scriptures tell the whole story of anything in the Bible, much less God.

Predestination is a riddle men toy with, to try and understand, and invariably end up imagining God as unjust by the limitations of their understanding. That's my opinion, as I've been through the list of questions about predestination till I've had a head ache, and I prefer to not mistakenly portray God as cruel (even in my imagination) since my understanding may be a bit beneath His concerning vessels created - just a bit (LOL). I don't make excuses for Him, but neither do I presume any injustice or evil done by Him - but will be willing and open minded to imagine the opposite - not having an evil imagination towards God.

Well, I think as long as we commit to never believing God is unjust, regardless of our understanding, or lack thereof, of Scripture we will be better outfitted to understand the Truth of the Gospel.

Because God knows those who will refuse Him, being Omnicient, He indeed is able to envolve that refusal into a plan, a prepared plan, and a preparation of a lamb slain before the foundations in the lamb of God - Jesus.

Of course He is able. It just doesn't take into account man's fallen nature apart from the grace of God. Too many chapters of the Bible relay man's natural enmity towards God to believe that man, in his unregenerate state, is anything but rebellious. When we speak of God's foreknowledge of future events we cannot do so without taking into account the direct cause and effect relationship between the grace of God and man's response to that grace. If God can see into the future, which is a strange analogy for an eternal Being, then we cannot rightly isolate that future event from the divine cause of that event. You say that God's plan dictates that if man "accepts" Jesus as Lord then he is saved. I would say that God's plan dictates that if man is saved he will accept Jesus as Lord. Man's response to God's efficacious call is not a 50/50 choice. If God issues a sovereign, internal call to a person then that person comes, no ifs, ands, or buts. If God does not issue that sovereign, internal call then they don't come because they never desire to come.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Did you want me to address this verse or were you just posting it in the belief that it supported your point of view? I'll give you a teaser on my response. "When they knew God" does not refer to them being regenerated unto life in Him.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

I'm not sure what this one had to do with this but maybe you could explain.

God bless,
Don

 

[Reformationist]

Hi there!

Hi there yourself.

"First, do those that end up in Heaven end up there because they made the right choice?"

There is only one right choice.

Thanks but you didn't answer my question. I said, do those that end up in Heaven end up BECAUSE they made the right choice? I'm not asking if there's more than one right choice.

"why do some choose Heaven and some choose Hell?"

Because they cannot have their cake and eat it too.

Again you haven't, in any understandable way, answered my question. Please try it without the food analogies.

"I think every individual makes a choice to either obey God or disobey God. Though they don't make these choices freely they do make them uncoerced. Those that disobey God do so because they desire to do so. Those that obey God obey Him because He has given them, by regenerating them, a desire to follow His commandments."

As always, you are entitled to your opinion.


~malaka~

Well, this was informative.

 

[Reformationist]

Hi there!





Yes.


Need scriptures?



OSAS.

Need Scriptures?




~malaka~

Just to clarify, I also believe that once God redeems us we are forever His. What I was asking you was, how can you believe that you became His by freely making the choice to be His but cannot, at a later date, freely choose to not be His?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

The body is a temple where our spirit resides, and if kept pure, the Holy Ghost can dwell within.

No. The indwelling of the Holy Ghost is what makes man's spirit pure. Man's nature after the fall is naturally impure. The process of keeping it pure is not something that is within our power, even in our regenerate state. The purity of our spirit, which I'm not even really sure what you mean by that, is something that is accomplished by the continual intercession on our behalf by the Lord and the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

God bless