Question: Mega-church

[JJB]

There is no simple answer to the issue of size. There are good reformed churches that are huge, there are cotton candy churches that are huge, there are good reformed churches that are small, there are cotton candy churches that are small. Essentially, it comes down to being berean-minded and testing the spirits at each one.

It is unfortunate that a church may choose to do "church growth" by placing themselves down the street from a smaller church. There was a time when Church Streets in towns across America was where you could see the body of Christ worshipping in different denominations on Sunday mornings. Afterwards, congregants from all denoms could have lunch together, and I imagine have feisty and interesting dialogues.

 

[Imblessed]

The church my daughter attends claims over 7000 attendees every weekend, but less than 700 members. As one who believes that church discipline is one of the marks of a true church - who holds the 6400 non-members accountable.


edie

I agree. Our church has almost 1000 members and about 2000 show up on weekends.....so I think the member to attendee ratio is pretty good over all

also, about 75% of the members are active in church, volunteering etc etc....which i think is unheard of, really.

I really don't have alot of experience with a mid-sized church though. I came from Quaker churches with membership of about 30-50 people to this church. Quite a difference really.

 

[ClementofRome]

Just to add that the Anglicans/Episcopalians also have the parish system.

My apologies for leaving you fine folks out.

As for the Parish System...I envision the neighborhood church. The very local community living, learning, loving and worshiping together. I realize that due to schism and doctrinal/praxis differences that this is merely a pipe-dream.

 

[ClementofRome]

If people meet in cell groups in these big churches they are far from lost in a crowd. People see the Sunday services and think quite easily that one does - but Sundays are seen as something different to the cell group.

I still don't see why a church would not want as many converts as possible - just because people get lost in a Sunday crowd? In the perspective of eternity, I'd rather see many come through the gates than just a few, and many come through as mature than many come through as immature, in that order. If people are saved in great numbers that is surely better than trying to keep a small church.

I don't see the megachurch as unbiblical. The idea of meeting in house churches is pretty much like the cell group because the christians also met in big numbers in public places as well (sounds like the Sundays). I don't see it as a doctrine set in stone but merely an observation.

If people don't like fluffiness, then good. I don't think being a megachurch means being 'fluffy'. But I think aiming to have as many people as possible come to know Jesus is to be desired. In the light of eternity it won't matter what style of chuch or size of church or the kind of denominational flavour one has - all that matters is that people are saved, and growing in God.

I suppose that I have Joel Osteen and his coliseum in mind. I am aware that the mega-church can and does work in many instances. I am just not a fan. I want to KNOW my pastor. I want to be able to call him up for lunch and he actually can put me on his schedule THIS week. I want my church to be my "cell group." I want to know them all. I am not suggesting that I want no converts or that I would in any way curtail growth (in fact we have moved from 17 in Sumday morning worship to almost 70 in 3 years!...exponentially, that is pretty good growth). We could never become a mega-church due to property restrictions (we can barely park the 70 folks we have now)...

 

[inchristalone221]

Rapturefish, I think the point people are trying to make is not that the church doesn't want converts, it's that we need to organize in a way that allows for intimacy and personal discipleship and plurality of ministry.

We can talk about the "church" in two senses. We can talk about the universal church, which consists of those redeemed, past present future. That church should always be seeking to expand.

However, we may also speak of the visible church. The church universal does not operate as a whole, it is expressed in local assemblies. I think the point people are making is that those local assemblies function better on smaller scales.

Just my two bits.

 

[rapturefish]

Rapturefish, I think the point people are trying to make is not that the church doesn't want converts, it's that we need to organize in a way that allows for intimacy and personal discipleship and plurality of ministry.

We can talk about the "church" in two senses. We can talk about the universal church, which consists of those redeemed, past present future. That church should always be seeking to expand.

However, we may also speak of the visible church. The church universal does not operate as a whole, it is expressed in local assemblies. I think the point people are making is that those local assemblies function better on smaller scales.

Just my two bits.

Hi there,

Thanks for making the point. I've mentioned before though that one characteristic of a numbero of megachurches is that they are both the largest and smallest gatherings - on Sundays the service is huge in numbers, but in the weekly cell groups the groups are small and also the place for better community on a small scale. Therefore I do not see how the megachurches can be seen as unbiblical, and I don't see that the bible says that small gatherings are a doctrine set in stone - but it is a good idea.

 

[rapturefish]

I suppose that I have Joel Osteen and his coliseum in mind. I am aware that the mega-church can and does work in many instances. I am just not a fan. I want to KNOW my pastor. I want to be able to call him up for lunch and he actually can put me on his schedule THIS week. I want my church to be my "cell group." I want to know them all. I am not suggesting that I want no converts or that I would in any way curtail growth (in fact we have moved from 17 in Sumday morning worship to almost 70 in 3 years!...exponentially, that is pretty good growth). We could never become a mega-church due to property restrictions (we can barely park the 70 folks we have now)...

I think even in a much smaller church it is difficult to have one pastor give that much attention to each member and also grow the church past a certain size. At some stage, like Moses, the pastor will have to find people under him to carry out those areas of pastoral care.

In a huge church it's probably a cell group leader who would be the available one and do those things. I don't see a problem with that, since a cell group leader will be a mature disciple-making christian who can handle these things.

Each to their own in terms of church styles I suppose. s for the property restrictions, might I suggest that in choosing between property restrictions and church growth that it's the growth that should be of priority and the property that works around that and not the other way round. And, I'd like to say that it's a great problem to have! Much better than the problem of trying to fill pews to capacity.

blessings,

 

[inchristalone221]

but in the weekly cell groups the groups are small and also the place for better community on a small scale. Therefore I do not see how the megachurches can be seen as unbiblical, and I don't see that the bible says that small gatherings are a doctrine set in stone - but it is a good idea.

The problem is that the sunday services are seen as the central focus of the church's life, and the small groups ought to be.

 

[rapturefish]

The problem is that the sunday services are seen as the central focus of the church's life, and the small groups ought to be.

How so?

 

[McWilliams]

I want to KNOW my pastor

I agree with the quote by Clement above and not only do I want to know the pastor I want to know that my pastor really really knows the bible and its author and spends time with Him daily! I dont want to be critical of others and how they do church but I do want to be certain church is done in a manner that glorified God and brings glory to His name and gives biblical food to God's people! I prayed earnestly for this and feel the Lord led me right to my present church where all of that takes place!
The Lord hasnt declared His chosen denomination but He has declared His truth in His word very clearly and until we get a full and regular diet of this we will continue to hassle man's ideas about trying to find the way we think best! Seems we take His truth and make it just as difficult as possible, trying to twist it about in a manner that will make it more acceptable to us! Just read it, daily for long periods as much as possible and it becomes clearer and clearer, especially when done for years and years! The benefits are great and the final payoff so beautiful!

 

[karen freeinchristman]

I agree with the quote by Clement above and not only do I want to know the pastor I want to know that my pastor really really knows the bible and its author and spends time with Him daily! I dont want to be critical of others and how they do church but I do want to be certain church is done in a manner that glorified God and brings glory to His name and gives biblical food to God's people! I prayed earnestly for this and feel the Lord led me right to my present church where all of that takes place!
The Lord hasnt declared His chosen denomination but He has declared His truth in His word very clearly and until we get a full and regular diet of this we will continue to hassle man's ideas about trying to find the way we think best! Seems we take His truth and make it just as difficult as possible, trying to twist it about in a manner that will make it more acceptable to us! Just read it, daily for long periods as much as possible and it becomes clearer and clearer, especially when done for years and years! The benefits are great and the final payoff so beautiful!

Wonderful post, and I agree wholeheartedly!

However, as much as I agree on the importance of the pastor being thoroughly grounded and steeped in scripture, and the importance of good teaching and feeding of the congregation, I am concerned when people say that they want to know their pastor, and that they want their pastor to be available to have lunch with them at any time within the week. We should expect our pastors to feed us well, but we often have too high of expectations when it comes to individual attention from the pastor.
I believe it is a big part of the pastor's job to enable and equip the rest of the congregation to do much of the visiting and caring and supporting of individual church members.
Even in a small church, there should be a limit to what the pastor does. This is a biblical concept; he/she is there to release the lay people to engage in ministries of their own, to be priestly people amongst themselves and to the world outside as well.

 

[ClementofRome]

Wonderful post, and I agree wholeheartedly!

However, as much as I agree on the importance of the pastor being thoroughly grounded and steeped in scripture, and the importance of good teaching and feeding of the congregation, I am concerned when people say that they want to know their pastor, and that they want their pastor to be available to have lunch with them at any time within the week. We should expect our pastors to feed us well, but we often have too high of expectations when it comes to individual attention from the pastor.
I believe it is a big part of the pastor's job to enable and equip the rest of the congregation to do much of the visiting and caring and supporting of individual church members.
Even in a small church, there should be a limit to what the pastor does. This is a biblical concept; he/she is there to release the lay people to engage in ministries of their own, to be priestly people amongst themselves and to the world outside as well.

I am sorry that my comments about "knowing my pastor" were misunderstood. I am a PK myself and know full well the trials and tribulations of pastors whose congregants have too high of an expectation for them! My Dad was gone constantly...I hardly knew him growing up.

I meant that I want to be able to have a personal relationship with my Pastor and for him to know me as I know him. What I meant by lunch was that, I want to be able to make a phone call and say, "Hey John, what are you doing for lunch today or tomorrow?" And his response NOT be, "Well Clem, you know that you will need to call the church secretary in order to find a suitable time for us to get together. And you know that my schedule is about 3-4 weeks out right now brother." I want my pastor to be my friend as well as my spiritual elder. In fact, since returning to the church in the late 80's, I have had only 3 pastors. The most recent 2 pastors are very close friends. We do get together for lunch. I am there for them! I rarely lay my burdens on them, but make myself available for them to lay their burdens on me. This is especially true of my former pastor. Through he is no longer my pastor and though we can only manage to see one another 3-4 times a year, I want to be his sounding board. I want to bear his burdens. To me, this is most biblical. Relationships, not mega-campuses.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

To me, this is most biblical. Relationships, not mega-campuses.

Yeah, I agree with this.

However, we should not be satisfied with a small congregation if there are many unreached people outside the doors. I think the idea of planting new churches when one gets too big is the way to go. Also the concept of collaborative ministry is one of the ways we can have a larger church and still have personal contacts and relationships.

 

[Rick Otto]

I agree that people have unrealistic expectations, and "collabrative ministry" is a good solution, but as I understand it, that is adding pastors so the personal relationship can be there, as it should.
Jesus said He knows His Sheep, & they know Him.
Mabe the more unrealistic expectation is an ever-growing "church".
I hate the term "church". It is too ambiguous & self-contradicting to prevent abuse of the notion of one body, one head.
I think this statement reveals the attitude:
I don't want to own all the property on earth, just that which borders mine.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Maybe the more unrealistic expectation is an ever-growing "church".

True!