Question: Mega-church

[ClementofRome]

Blessed brothers and sisters....my alma mater (Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary) has just named the pastor of a mega-church as its new President.

In the recent decades, GCTS has tapped scholars as President (read: Cooley and Kaiser, nost recently). Is this move a glorification of the mega-church?

I am of the opinion that the non-denom mega-church is merely a fad and a passing one at that. The concept of the mega-church seems antithetical to biblical Christianity.

I was greatly educated at GCTS and loved my experience at the Hamilton, MA campus. The new focus seems to be on non-traditional education as the new guy comes from Charlotte, NC....where GCTS has its non-trad campus.

I could go on and on. It was a great place to receive a reformed education even though it was/and is "multidenominational." Seems that the new move is to go from "multi" to "non."

Thanks for listening.
Clem

 

[strengthinweakness]

Hmm... this move is certainly interesting and potentially distressing. What is the name of the new president's (former?) mega-church?

The senior pastor (i.e. main preaching elder) at my church, Mark Dever, received his M. Div. from Gorden-Conwell, and he is certainly no exponent of the usual "mega-church" mentality. In fact, he was described by someone (whose name I can't remember) as a "modern-day Puritan."

I sincerely hope that Gordon-Conwell is not giving in to the pragmatic, consumer-driven mindset that is so prevalent in evangelical Christianity today. That would be very sad, and it would signal the beginning of the end for GCTS as a place of serious, Word-centered thought and learning.

 

[CCWoody]

I don't believe that the mega-church is a fad. I believe that pastors have figured out that you get more money with cotton candy than you do preaching the meat of the Word.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[edie19]

I too think the mega-church has a limited life span. If (when) we see a time when the economy takes a true downturn and/or the church in the US becomes truly persecuted people will run from the happy-clappy "feel good about yourself" churches like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

edie

 

[Irishcat922]

Spurgeon pastored a "mega-church". Standing room only almost every Lord's Day. I know, I know, just thought I would stir the pot a little.

 

[DrWarfield]

CCWoody wrote:
'I don't believe that the mega-church is a fad. I believe that pastors have figured out that you get more money with cotton candy than you do preaching the meat of the Word.'


Brother, I in no way wish to be seen as a defender or proponent of the mega-Church. In fact I am the minister of a 'very, very small congregation' - that is how my fellow mega-Church type ministers refer to our congregation. Furthermore, I am of the conviction that when a congregation reaches a certain number (maybe 300 communicant members) then that congregation ought to plant another. Nevertheless, I do believe that it is an over generalisation to infer that mega-church and 'cotton candy' are synonymous. There are some quite large Reformed Churches and there ministers are certainly not peddling 'another gospel' for the sake of 'cotton candy'.

Regards,
DrWarfield

 

[inchristalone221]

Brother, I in no way wish to be seen as a defender or proponent of the mega-Church. In fact I am the minister of a 'very, very small congregation' - that is how my fellow mega-Church type ministers refer to our congregation. Furthermore, I am of the conviction that when a congregation reaches a certain number (maybe 300 communicant members) then that congregation ought to plant another. Nevertheless, I do believe that it is an over generalisation to infer that mega-church and 'cotton candy' are synonymous. There are some quite large Reformed Churches and there ministers are certainly not peddling 'another gospel' for the sake of 'cotton candy'.

I suppose you could be right, though my personal experience with mega-churches is very "cotton candy" (I live not an hour and a half from Saddleback).

 

[CCWoody]

Nevertheless, I do believe that it is an over generalisation to infer that mega-church and 'cotton candy' are synonymous.

Yes, I do accept that not all mega-churches fit this mold.

 

[ClementofRome]

I guess that I am rebeling against a local "baptist" church that has really gone wild....a huge campus on the river and several thousand in attendance and none of you would recognize it,....name or place. I am a member of a church that has been in its present location since the mid-1800's. We are very small (60ish in attendance). The local mega has built their campus right down the street from us.

Where is the family? Where is the locale of like minded bretheren? Where is the one who lives just across the way and loves you like a family member?

The RCC and the Orthodox got one thing definately right, that we Protestants have abandoned......the idea of the Parish.

May God forgive us.

 

[seminarywifealicia]

I just have a comment. Personally I think Presidents of Seminaries of any kind should be qualified beyond "pastor of a mega church". If this were his only qualification I would be concerned. What were his other qualifications? Also, there is a very biblically sound and conservative Mega Church in our area that hubby and I checked out just because we had never been to one. I was very pleased and left challenged in my walk.

 

[seminarywifealicia]

I guess that I am rebeling against a local "baptist" church that has really gone wild....a huge campus on the river and several thousand in attendance and none of you would recognize it,....name or place. I am a member of a church that has been in its present location since the mid-1800's. We are very small (60ish in attendance). The local mega has built their campus right down the street from us.

Where is the family? Where is the locale of like minded bretheren? Where is the one who lives just across the way and loves you like a family member?

The RCC and the Orthodox got one thing definately right, that we Protestants have abandoned......the idea of the Parish.

May God forgive us.

I agree..the mega church moving in right down the street is irresponsible. They should be seeking the lost not other believers. Shame shame..

 

[ClementofRome]

Let me apologize for not trusting Dr. White in my initial comments. I am not here to bash him. I am just greatly concerned with the MEGA persona that he brings to the Presidency of GCTS.

Please forgive me...

http://www.gcts.edu/communications/2006/presidentwhite.php

 

[seminarywifealicia]

Let me apologize for not trusting Dr. White in my initial comments. I am not here to bash him. I am just greatly concerned with the MEGA persona that he brings to the Presidency of GCTS.

Please forgive me...

http://www.gcts.edu/communications/2006/presidentwhite.php

Sounds like he will be wonderful! May the Lord bless his time there...I noticed he's a MDiv grad from Southern...sounds like a good guy *firm nod*. Of course I might be slightly biased since that is where my hubby is currently a student.

 

[rapturefish]

I don't get it... how would keeping a church small be good for the kingdom? Less people saved, less new converts to the flock, etc. is hardly good news for the church.

I think numbers are not a true reflection of a church's health. If there are a lot of people being saved, then there just needs to be good discipleship to ensure people become mature and less likely to stray because of better foundations.

I wish the church would become as big as possible, and have the greatest number of mature disciples. I think a small church of long-time christians is pretty useless if it doesn't eventually grow. I think a huge church that doesn't invest in discipleship will also find itself losing a fair few as well in the process.

Numbers aren't everything, and numbers aren't nothing. Numbers are just indications. Look to the reasons behind such things and take it from there.

Therefore I wouldn't say megachurches are unbiblical. The day of Pentecost saw an addition of 3000 to their number, in just one day. They must be 'unbiblically' big by today's standards.

The biggest churches are also the smallest churches in general, because they are made up of many small cell groups that divide and multiply like cells. So I wouldn't say megachurches are simply just big churches.

 

[rapturefish]

I agree..the mega church moving in right down the street is irresponsible. They should be seeking the lost not other believers. Shame shame..

If one thinks about it, even a megachurch will only draw several thousand people, far less than the number of people in a given locality. I think there's a lot of scope for several megachurches to be in the one area.

There are some huge churches that are pretty close to each other in the US, and yet they all do well without draining each other. Isn't it a blessing to have several big churches in one area, rather than a problem?

 

[ClementofRome]

I don't get it... how would keeping a church small be good for the kingdom? Less people saved, less new converts to the flock, etc. is hardly good news for the church.

I think numbers are not a true reflection of a church's health. If there are a lot of people being saved, then there just needs to be good discipleship to ensure people become mature and less likely to stray because of better foundations.

I wish the church would become as big as possible, and have the greatest number of mature disciples. I think a small church of long-time christians is pretty useless if it doesn't eventually grow. I think a huge church that doesn't invest in discipleship will also find itself losing a fair few as well in the process.

Numbers aren't everything, and numbers aren't nothing. Numbers are just indications. Look to the reasons behind such things and take it from there.

Therefore I wouldn't say megachurches are unbiblical. The day of Pentecost saw an addition of 3000 to their number, in just one day. They must be 'unbiblically' big by today's standards.

The biggest churches are also the smallest churches in general, because they are made up of many small cell groups that divide and multiply like cells. So I wouldn't say megachurches are simply just big churches.

I understand your sentiment. However, getting lost in the crowd is not my idea of a "church."

Additionally, with reference to Pentecost and the 3000,....they were from all over the region and would be going back home to start their own "house churches"

 

[Imblessed]

I guess I feel lucky that I have the best of "both worlds". I belong to a church that if one were on the outside looking in, would think "cotton candy" and if one were biased against mega churches, would never attend.

However, the sermons are not fluffy, and the pastor and all the elders are solid Calvinists.

We have started a church plant about an hour and a half or so from this church, in an area that demographically is SORELY lacking in churches(well, church going people anyway--seems ohio is not short on churches per capita anywhere).

We are a mega-church just barely---with a little over 2000 attendies each weekend over 3 services. But we have less than 1000 actual members, in part because at membership class, they make it clear that they want participation and involvement in our members, not just a signed peice of paper. Not that they kick you out if you are not involved, but they stress that by signing a membership agreement, you are agreeing to a lot more than just turning up once a week, you are agreeing to support and help the church. We have something like 80% of our members that are active in the church somewhere.
Honestly, if if were not for the solid preaching and the ephesis on discipleship and maturing, my husband and I would be going somewhere else, because neither of us like big crowds. In fact, we had no intentions of joining a large church. My husband was particularly wary of attending this one----but I had gone on a couple of Wednesday night services with my sister-in-law, who was going only because it was right next to a bowling alley and her husband(my brother) was bowling on Wednesday evenings, so she would drop him off and go the church! Funny how things work out sometimes! Because if it weren't for that, I would have never in a million years gone on my own. Precisely because of my feelings on "McChurches"

One of the things you must get past in a big church is that there are going to be people there who go just becuase it's the "in" place to go, or to "be seen" or something like that. It's inevitable. The discipleship is available, the classes are there, but you can't make people take them. Our pastor makes it plain that showing up once a week at his church is not what he is after, nor the tithe. He is quite plain that he wants the congregation to mature, and to participate. However, he can't stand over everyone and crack a whip.

I'm sure that there are mega-churches out there who are much more interested in the numbers than in the maturity and growth of the members, but I feel lucky that our church is not like that. In fact, I've seen several practices that I felt were a little too fluffy, or faddish be thrown out completely in favor of keeping things more God-focused. I've seen the song-list be tapered to those that glorify God alone, and songs that were me-centered suddenly no longer sung.
They've changed the Wednesday format to a more studying format, less like the weekend services---because the Wednesday services are for growth and maturity, they expect that those who show up on Wednesdays are christians and there to mature and learn.



man, I just looked back on what I've typed and realize I sound like I'm justifying the mega-church. In reality, I feel almost guilty for enjoying the church as I do. I feel a bit 'shallow' I guess, because my standards don't seem to be as high. Honestly though, this church does challenge me to grow and learn. I see the benefits of the large church, and I see the positive changes that have taken place using the "Purpose Driven Church" formula. YES, I am saying that there can be a positive!
I was very skeptical of our church doing the 40 Days Of Purpose, and rather reluctantly go involved, but I felt positively chagrined when I went to the dinner held for the Home leaders and heard stories of how God had used them, and stories of conversion and growth. I cannot discount the good it did in our church.

I guess i should stop while I'm ahead here. While I would probably enjoy a smaller church with less members, I think that I would have a very hard time finding a church that offered what this one does in terms of growth, discipleship, and good preaching.

BTW, what do you all think of Allister Begg's church? It qualifies as mega, yet from what I've heard on the raidio of his, he does not compromise the message in any way, shape or form.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Very interesting thread; I've really got a lot out of reading these posts! Thanks! I used to think that the Mega-churches were something to aim for, but I am quickly learning that they are not always what they appear to be from the outside.

The RCC and the Orthodox got one thing definately right, that we Protestants have abandoned......the idea of the Parish.

Just to add that the Anglicans/Episcopalians also have the parish system.

 

[rapturefish]

I understand your sentiment. However, getting lost in the crowd is not my idea of a "church."

Additionally, with reference to Pentecost and the 3000,....they were from all over the region and would be going back home to start their own "house churches"

If people meet in cell groups in these big churches they are far from lost in a crowd. People see the Sunday services and think quite easily that one does - but Sundays are seen as something different to the cell group.

I still don't see why a church would not want as many converts as possible - just because people get lost in a Sunday crowd? In the perspective of eternity, I'd rather see many come through the gates than just a few, and many come through as mature than many come through as immature, in that order. If people are saved in great numbers that is surely better than trying to keep a small church.

I don't see the megachurch as unbiblical. The idea of meeting in house churches is pretty much like the cell group because the christians also met in big numbers in public places as well (sounds like the Sundays). I don't see it as a doctrine set in stone but merely an observation.

If people don't like fluffiness, then good. I don't think being a megachurch means being 'fluffy'. But I think aiming to have as many people as possible come to know Jesus is to be desired. In the light of eternity it won't matter what style of chuch or size of church or the kind of denominational flavour one has - all that matters is that people are saved, and growing in God.

 

[edie19]

I
However, the sermons are not fluffy, and the pastor and all the elders are solid Calvinists. . . . .BTW, what do you all think of Allister Begg's church? It qualifies as mega, yet from what I've heard on the raidio of his, he does not compromise the message in any way, shape or form.

That's why I spoke of the "happy-clappy" churches when referring to mega churches.

There are churches out there with large memberships that preach Christ and Him crucified - the foolishness of the cross. There are also those that "tickle the ears." I have great respect for the former and no patience for the latter. The latter are the ones that won't survive persecution - because they've never been fed, they have no true foundation other than "God is love" or "God loves the sinner but hates the sin."

The church my daughter attends claims over 7000 attendees every weekend, but less than 700 members. As one who believes that church discipline is one of the marks of a true church - who holds the 6400 non-members accountable.

I've been privileged to hear Alistair Begg speak in person (not at his church) and he holds firmly to reformed doctrine and the gospel of grace. I don't know what the pastor:member ratio at his church is, but that's another issue. I know for a fact that when my pastors are on their knees they pray for each and every person in their church family (members and nonmembers alike) by name. In a church of thousands of people - how can that be accomplished?

edie