Question How old was Joesph when he married Mary?

[Eurasia]

Does anyone know ? Someone on the forums said Mary was around 12-14 years old and Joesph was around 30 years old.. Can anyone else confirm this? Why do you think it was more socially acceptable for girls to marry so young with a much larger age difference back in those times than compared to today?

 

[narnia59]

It's a good question and certainly not specified in Scripture. The earliest church tradition which is supported by apocryphal writings is that Joseph was an elderly widower at the time of their marriage. Certainly something not that uncommon in Jewish society for this type of marriage to occur. Many of the early icons show Joseph as an elderly gray-haired man holding the baby Jesus in his arms.

 

[Rick Otto]

He wasn't to old to marry.
Narnia, it would be realy cool if you could cite sources for me.

I can't cite anything for this offhand, but people didn't live as long as we do now and the lack of technological conveniences limited leisure and forced an earlier mental and emotional maturity, opposite of what we experience today.

 

[MamaZ]

Scripture does not tell us how old Joseph was.

 

[narnia59]

He wasn't to old to marry.
Narnia, it would be realy cool if you could cite sources for me.

I can't cite anything for this offhand, but people didn't live as long as we do now and the lack of technological conveniences limited leisure and forced an earlier mental and emotional maturity, opposite of what we experience today.

How old is too old?

People tend to place their own 20th century perspective of Christian marriage onto Mary and Joseph, instead of recognizing their marriage was that of a pre-first century Jewish couple. Many reasons for marriage in the patriarchal culture.

The apocryphal literature I believe is the Protoevangelium of James. It documents that Mary was a consecrated virgin in service of the temple. Joseph agreed to marry her as her protector and guardian in this role. Not only did he have to deal personally with the fact she became pregnant, he also had to deal with the understanding of those around him that he had violated her vow of virginity and the care that was assigned to him.

While none of this is recorded in Scripture, it certainly doesn't conflict with what's recorded in Scripture either. The tradition of the church is that he was elderly. This is why he's mentioned at the time Jesus is 12, but there is no mention of him at the foot of the cross -- by this point he has died.

 

[Celticflower]

.

While none of this is recorded in Scripture, it certainly doesn't conflict with what's recorded in Scripture either. The tradition of the church is that he was elderly. This is why he's mentioned at the time Jesus is 12, but there is no mention of him at the foot of the cross -- by this point he has died.

Given his occupation and the time in which he lived it is just as likely that he died of a work related injury or disease. No where in scripture are we told his age, when he died or from what. Maybe because it isn't important, at least as far as faith and salvation go.

Personally, I don't think he was an old man. Definately an adult and older than Mary, yes, but not the elderly man so often depicted in Nativity scenes.

 

[MamaZ]

This is why he's mentioned at the time Jesus is 12, but there is no mention of him at the foot of the cross -- by this point he has died.

well there is no mention of the all the disciples or Jesus brothers or sisters at the cross either. That does not mean they were dead.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I'm curious about the reasons for the various opinions expressed here. Those who say he was old have said their opinions are based on the traditions of the early church. Those who think he was younger, I'm curious as to your reasons.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Scripture does not tell us how old Joseph was.

Too much speculation can lead to old wives tales and myths me thinks.

I did find this interesting about another "Joseph" in the NT concerning the bones of the "Joseph" in the OT.
Look at the name of the one that came to claim the body of the Lord Jesus

Hebrews 11:22 To faith Joseph decreasing concerning the exodus of the children of Israel remembers and concerning his bones directs.

John 19:38 After yet these things, asks the Pilate, Joseph from Arimathaea, {being a disciple of Jesus, having hid yet because of the fear of the Judeans,} that he might take away the body of the Jesus and the Pilate suffers so. He came then and takes away His body.

 

[narnia59]

well there is no mention of the all the disciples or Jesus brothers or sisters at the cross either. That does not mean they were dead.

Yes, but we know that they were present during his adult ministry and were not present at the cross. Not so with Joseph. You are also assuming that the man who remained faithful to Mary and protected her from being stoned to death under Jewish law then abandoned her and Jesus at the cross. Pretty large accusation to place on someone with absolutely no evidence, don't you think? Especially when there is evidence to the contrary regarding the steadfastness of his character.

 

[narnia59]

Given his occupation and the time in which he lived it is just as likely that he died of a work related injury or disease. No where in scripture are we told his age, when he died or from what. Maybe because it isn't important, at least as far as faith and salvation go.

Personally, I don't think he was an old man. Definately an adult and older than Mary, yes, but not the elderly man so often depicted in Nativity scenes.

So if scripture isn't specific, why would one choose to reject the tradition of the early church for personal opinions?

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm curious about the reasons for the various opinions expressed here. Those who say he was old have said their opinions are based on the traditions of the early church. Those who think he was younger, I'm curious as to your reasons.

Ok, good. I highlighted that part in blue...

How old is too old?

It depends on who is involved & their motivations for marriage. I think we agree on that much.

People tend to place their own 20th century perspective of Christian marriage onto Mary and Joseph, instead of recognizing their marriage was that of a pre-first century Jewish couple. Many reasons for marriage in the patriarchal culture.

People of every century tend to place their own perspective of everything onto everything. There have always been many reasons for marriage in every culture in every century.

The apocryphal literature I believe is the Protoevangelium of James. It documents that Mary was a consecrated virgin in service of the temple.

Interesting. A tradition accepted by the group that did not canonize it's source. Ok, I've seen babies in dirty bath water before, but it makes for a pretty iffy standard of evidence, in my opinion.

Joseph agreed to marry her as her protector and guardian in this role

.
That's standard no matter the age or motivation for marriage.

Not only did he have to deal personally with the fact she became pregnant, he also had to deal with the understanding of those around him that he had violated her vow of virginity and the care that was assigned to him.

So he was at least young enough to have had the virilty required to the extent that peers would suspect it. Wasn't he actively working as a carpenter? That isn't exactly a leisurely pursuit.

While none of this is recorded in Scripture, it certainly doesn't conflict with what's recorded in Scripture either.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. Scriptural evidence suggests Jesus had siblings, not step-siblings.

The tradition of the church is that he was elderly.

People tend to place their own 20th century perspective of age onto Joseph.

This is why he's mentioned at the time Jesus is 12, but there is no mention of him at the foot of the cross -- by this point he has died.

Not that it's an unreasonable conclusion, but is that conjecture or is there a tradition that hints at that?

 

[narnia59]

Interesting. A tradition accepted by the group that did not canonize it's source. Ok, I've seen babies in dirty bath water before, but it makes for a pretty iffy standard of evidence, in my opinion.

It did not canonize the source but also did not label it as 'gnostic'. Apocrypha was considered to be useful for historic context but not divinely inpsired, correct?
.

So he was at least young enough to have had the virilty required to the extent that peers would suspect it. Wasn't he actively working as a carpenter? That isn't exactly a leisurely pursuit.

Many men are capable of hard physical labor and producing children at quite an advanced age.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. Scriptural evidence suggests Jesus had siblings, not step-siblings.

Actually no, because Scripture does not differentiate between the two, especially with a common father. People would have seen any children of Joseph's as being Jesus brothers and sisters regardless of whether Mary was their mother. Evidence -- look at the sons of Jacob, the twelves tribes of Israel. Twelves sons of 4 different mothers, but Scripture consistently refers to them as brothers, not step-brothers.

People tend to place their own 20th century perspective of age onto Joseph.

For those who believe he was young that is certainly true. For those who believe he was elderly, that goes back to the early church.

Not that it's an unreasonable conclusion, but is that conjecture or is there a tradition that hints at that?

The belief that Joseph was dead at the time of the crucifixion is part of tradition, yes.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Ok, good. I highlighted that part in blue...

It depends on who is involved & their motivations for marriage. I think we agree on that much.


People of every century tend to place their own perspective of everything onto everything. There have always been many reasons for marriage in every culture in every century.

Of course. This means in the absence of evidence, we are only speculating.

Interesting. A tradition accepted by the group that did not canonize it's source. Ok, I've seen babies in dirty bath water before, but it makes for a pretty iffy standard of evidence, in my opinion.

This argument always confuses me. Does lack of canonization mean a book is false? The Didache is not canonized, yet it is taken as strong evidence of the beliefs and practices of the early church. The creeds were not made part of the Bible. The letters of Clement and Ignatius were not made part of the Bible (although I believe one or two of Clement's letters were suggested for canonization by some Christians) yet they are considered extremely reliable evidence of what the early church believed and how their early leaders thought. If people believed what Clement and Ignatius and the authors of the Didache and the creeds thought, why didn't they canonize these writings?

.
That's standard no matter the age or motivation for marriage.
So he was at least young enough to have had the virilty required to the extent that peers would suspect it. Wasn't he actively working as a carpenter? That isn't exactly a leisurely pursuit.

I think the question, "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?" (Matthew 13:55) is some evidence that the people of Jesus' hometown in Galilee were not aware of the story in the Protevangelion of James. It could be because the Protevangelion is fictional, or it could be that when Joseph returned to Nazareth with Mary, they tried to live as normal a life as possible and didn't brag about Jesus' divine origin. Obviously, the people of Jesus' hometown were not aware of (or did not believe) the background of his birth recorded in the first chapters of Matthew and Luke, either.

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. Scriptural evidence suggests Jesus had siblings, not step-siblings.

If they in fact were Joseph's children by a previous marriage, how do you think the scriptures would have referred to them?

People tend to place their own 20th century perspective of age onto Joseph.

Very true. Just as people tend to place their own 20th century perspective on what must be meant by the words "brothers and sisters."

Not that it's an unreasonable conclusion, but is that conjecture or is there a tradition that hints at that?

It is a very old tradition. Did it arise from conjecture based on silence in the gospels or from someone who knew, such as John or James, talking about it before the gospels were even written down? I don't think we have enough evidence to know. But for me, if two traditions are both based on conjecture, there is reason to give more credence to the conjectures of people closer to the time, familiar with the culture, possibly privy to more facts, at least living at the same time as people who likely were in a position to say, "No, that's not true," on the basis of personal knowledge or reliable testimony.

Those would be my reasons for thinking it more likely that Joseph was older and that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were Joseph's children by a previous marriage.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So if scripture isn't specific, why would one choose to reject the tradition of the early church for personal opinions?

Whoever said their Tradition or interpretations of the Scriptures was accurate? And you wonder why so many Christians view the Roman church in revelation

Matthew 23:38 Lo, is being left to ye the House of ye a-wilderness/erhmoV <2048>

Reve 18:9 and shall be lamenting and shall be wailing over Her the kings of the land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the smoke of the fireing/purwsei <4451> of Her

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

 

[Crazy Liz]

Whoever said their Tradition or interpretations of the Scriptures was accurate?

And why would you think your speculations more accurate than older traditions and interpretations?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The way I've always thought of Mary and Joseph was like a 50 year old guy marrying a 19 year old. That never did square up with our youth-group produced live nativity though, where the year's boyfriend and girlfriend often ended up as Mary and Joseph. Or, in some cases where nosy moms got involved, two kids whose moms wished they'd get together. But given the practices and traditions of that particular culture and time, it's a sure bet that Joseph was much older than Mary.

I believe that Joseph died early on in Jesus' ministry. I do not claim to know when, nor is it really important. I do think that scriptures would've mentioned his earthly father if he was still around.

We don't commit a lot of study to these types of matters, since they're really adiaphora in terms of salvation. I respect those of the opinion that Joseph was younger as much as I respect the opinions of those who think he was older.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And why would you think your speculations more accurate than older traditions and interpretations?

Why not? I have the Holy Spirit just as they did.

Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema/anaqemati <331> we anathemtize ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul.

Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

 

[Canaan-84]

Personally, I don't think he was an old man. Definately an adult and older than Mary, yes, but not the elderly man so often depicted in Nativity scenes.

That seems more likely. Also, there is a Gospel concerning the life of the Virgin Mary, which is where most of the nativity stories take from as well as another Gospel that describes the life of Jesus as a child. Both were not included in canon though.

Anyway, have you seen the film The Nativity Story? In that film a 25 year old actor was chosen to play Joseph and a 15 year old actress was chosen to play Mary.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Come to think of it, most of the men in that time period looked old, no matter how old they actually were. So the nativity scenes could be right on the mark!

Of course, Nativity scenes also usually contain the three wise men, which probably isn't accurate either.