Question from a newly Reformed Baptist

[Julian of York]

I actually have a couple of questions.
One of the helps that I use daily for devotions is "Bible Gateway". I have always been pleased with their sound doctrine. Until now....
Yesterday, the "Tabletalk" with RC Sproul mentioned praying for a brother in the Lord that has fallen into sin.So far, so good. Then he said "That he might be saved." I do not have the text in front of me, but an additional comment on the section "Coram Deo" said that this brother should be looked on as a candidate for evangelism.
Okay. As a lifelong Baptist, who even stayed with Calvin while attending a Free Will Baptist Church for thirteen years (because of standards and GOOD preaching) and now reformed and even more so "once-saved, always saved."I am confused.
My possible explanation might be that the reference was to someone not really converted. But in that case, the offender should not be called brother.
Or that the person that offends is in need of repentence to save their physical life...But that is "thin" too.
What gives?
Secondly, I had a young lady, who is attending a secular university and taking a "World Religions" course ,ask "What is the difference between Christ and other religions?"
My answer was the pretty standard, all religions (including Catholicism) seek to please a Diety by "works" of some kind, trying to perform something to insure everlasting life. Christianity (the true kind as preached by the Christ) is Christ sending forth His Son,made of a woman, to redeem us from the Law. It is not "works" salvation but "WORK" salvation, and that work done by the God-Man.
She told me that she is interested in being "right with God". (She now attends "church").In answer to the totally (for her) mind-blowing news that God has already CHOSEN in time past WHO would be saved, she said, "How can I be saved,then?" My answer was that she should be encouraged, if God has put the DESIRE in her heart, as that was an indication that she is open to the Gospel.
Help me out here. I have led MANY people to make a "prayer" and "accept Jesus", and who have never shown signs of conversion. I am scared to death, I mean really, to give people false hope or have a false conversion.
Pray and ask what answer ,with verses if you will, that will HELP ME to be a Disciple seeking the lost.

Your Brother,
Julian of York

 

[file13]

Help me out here. I have led MANY people to make a "prayer" and "accept Jesus", and who have never shown signs of conversion. I am scared to death, I mean really, to give people false hope or have a false conversion.
Pray and ask what answer ,with verses if you will, that will HELP ME to be a Disciple seeking the lost.

Hey brother!

I honestly don't think you need to do anything different when witnessing then you did before other then perhaps, laying off a "sinners prayer." The Law/Gospel distinction (bad news first so they know why they need saving and from and by whom) is the same when witnessing. If you're not familiar with what I mean by this, I'd personally recommend the WOTM/Living Waters folks for help here. Otherwise, the only thing I think you may need to be careful with is to avoid saying things like "Christ died for you." Just say that "Christ died for sinners,' and that all who repent and trust in Him will be saved. No one who is truly seeking Him will be turned away. This is the simple Gospel and there's nothing really special about this for those holding to the Reformed view of salvation.

That being said, what do you think you might have said that was incorrect or poorly done?

 

[Julian of York]

Thanks for the assistance.
Interestingly, "Way of the Master" was the source of my personal "Reformation". I had never HEARD of Reformed Baptists until I started investigating those things written in the book. (Now I ARE one!)
Anxiety over the possibility of false converts is THE motive for any personal witnessing now. The great numbers of people that prayed with me in the last forty years almost ruined me. I am still having difficulty with being convinced that it is not a result of my wrong motives and methods, and periodically chastening myself.
Thanks for listening!
Everything that you mentioned checks out with anything I have said to sinners since becoming reformed.

JoY

 

[file13]

Thanks for the assistance.
Interestingly, "Way of the Master" was the source of my personal "Reformation". I had never HEARD of Reformed Baptists until I started investigating those things written in the book. (Now I ARE one!)
Anxiety over the possibility of false converts is THE motive for any personal witnessing now. The great numbers of people that prayed with me in the last forty years almost ruined me. I am still having difficulty with being convinced that it is not a result of my wrong motives and methods, and periodically chastening myself.
Thanks for listening!
Everything that you mentioned checks out with anything I have said to sinners since becoming reformed.

JoY

My pleasure brother! Yeah, it's a great book and one of my "top five every Christian should read." (This sounds like a good thread idea too....).

But yeah, not really sure what else to say brother then just yup, I know what you mean about it being hard to simply trust in the lord. I think everyone who takes evangelism/apologetics (and I think the purpose of the latter is always the former) seriously runs into this notion of "I'm not doing it right" and "I need to work harder." Nothing wrong with trying to do better, but we always have to remember that it is God who calls. We also have to remember that we shouldn't expect to hit a home run every time or even at all. I think Greg Koukl makes this point very well about "just getting up to bat" and "trying to put a stone in someone's shoe." Based on my own experience, I think that often the Holy Spirit works very slowly to transform our beliefs over time until we can reach the point where we will freely desire to repent and trust in Christ. So ya know, always remember that we never know what something we said 1, 5, or even 10 years will be used by the Spirit to lead them to their Savior.

Speaking of which, if you haven't I'd highly recommend Greg Koukl's book Tactics as a great supplement to the Way of the Master. He was on their show recently too. Good good stuff!

Apologetics with Greg Koukl #373 - YouTube

 

[twin1954]

I actually have a couple of questions.
One of the helps that I use daily for devotions is "Bible Gateway". I have always been pleased with their sound doctrine. Until now....
Yesterday, the "Tabletalk" with RC Sproul mentioned praying for a brother in the Lord that has fallen into sin.So far, so good. Then he said "That he might be saved." I do not have the text in front of me, but an additional comment on the section "Coram Deo" said that this brother should be looked on as a candidate for evangelism.
Okay. As a lifelong Baptist, who even stayed with Calvin while attending a Free Will Baptist Church for thirteen years (because of standards and GOOD preaching) and now reformed and even more so "once-saved, always saved."I am confused.
My possible explanation might be that the reference was to someone not really converted. But in that case, the offender should not be called brother.
Or that the person that offends is in need of repentence to save their physical life...But that is "thin" too.
What gives?

Both the Scriptures and experience teach us that brothers often fall. Our duty to them is love not judgement. We are to pray for them the joy of the Lord would be restored to them. And we are to preach the Gospel to them. The problem in yours and most peoples thinking is they have been influenced far too much by religious tradition. The idea that preaching the Gospel is to seek to convert unbelievers is false. I have been a believer for many years and I need to hear the Gospel of Christ as much, if not more, today than I did so many years ago. I never tire of hearing of Christ. He is the message of the Gospel and food to the hungry soul all of the time. The message of the Gospel in the power of the Spirit converts, convicts, consoles and comunnicates strength to the believer much more often than it convinces the unbeliever. The same message that was used by the Spirit to bring me to life and faith is the same message that keeps me in faith and guides me day by day.

Today you will hear everything from the pulpit but the Gospel. Once they got you converted they now have to disciple you and that takes a different message. Now you need to be taught how to be a good christian. Nonsense! The same Christ that gave me life will guide me in that life so that I follow Him as naturally as I followed my sin. Sheep hear His voice and follow Him. They often falter and fail but He is able to lead them back into the fold. They don't need to be "disciplined" as it is commonly practiced they need to hear of Christ. Point me continually to the object of my love and I will seek His face and honor continually. Point me to anything other than Him and I will become religious until I am tired and then fall way. You cannot point folks to Christ to get them converted and then to themselves to keep them converted. That was Paul's whole message to the Galatians.

Secondly, I had a young lady, who is attending a secular university and taking a "World Religions" course ,ask "What is the difference between Christ and other religions?"
My answer was the pretty standard, all religions (including Catholicism) seek to please a Diety by "works" of some kind, trying to perform something to insure everlasting life. Christianity (the true kind as preached by the Christ) is Christ sending forth His Son,made of a woman, to redeem us from the Law. It is not "works" salvation but "WORK" salvation, and that work done by the God-Man.
She told me that she is interested in being "right with God". (She now attends "church").In answer to the totally (for her) mind-blowing news that God has already CHOSEN in time past WHO would be saved, she said, "How can I be saved,then?" My answer was that she should be encouraged, if God has put the DESIRE in her heart, as that was an indication that she is open to the Gospel.
Help me out here. I have led MANY people to make a "prayer" and "accept Jesus", and who have never shown signs of conversion. I am scared to death, I mean really, to give people false hope or have a false conversion.
Pray and ask what answer ,with verses if you will, that will HELP ME to be a Disciple seeking the lost.

Your Brother,
Julian of York

Men devise "methods" because they do not believe that the simple and clear preaching of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. What I got from the video was that you must devise a method to get to the Gospel. Rubbish! "Apologetics" is about convincing folks with an argument which is agsinst what Paul said in 1Cor. 2:1-5

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(1Co 2:1-5)
If you convince some that God created the world what have you done for their soul? If you convince someone that the Bible is true what have you done for their soul? The problem is that you have convinced them not the Spirit. We are to tell folks about Christ and leave the rest to God. If you are truly concerned for the lost do all that you can to see that they are found where the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ alone is being preached. If you want someone to hear from Christ see to it that they are found where He has promised to be. Where two or three are gathered in His name.

Folks don't need to hear of election to believe they need to hear of the person and accomplished work of Christ. If the Spirit is pleased to give them life and faith in Christ election will not be a problem for them because they know God and follow Him in His truth. All true believers do.

 

[file13]

Men devise "methods" because they do not believe that the simple and clear preaching of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. What I got from the video was that you must devise a method to get to the Gospel. Rubbish! "Apologetics" is about convincing folks with an argument which is agsinst what Paul said in 1Cor. 2:1-5

We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
(2 Corinthians 10:5 ESV)

But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
(1 Peter 3:14-16 ESV)
​

What do you understand apologetics to be?

 

[twin1954]

It is giving a simple answer for the hope that is in you. It isn't convincing folks with an argument but a sinple telling to others what Christ has done for you. Men must do buisness with Christ. Until they do all the knowledge and arguments in the world will do them no good. Salvation isn't being convinced that the Bible is true. Salvation isn't being convinced of creationism. Salvation isn't believing an argument that Christ was a real man or even that He is the Savior. Salvation is dealing with your sin and the person and work of Christ and bowing to Him.

Apologetics is telling folks what you are, sin, and your total dependency on Christ alone and why. Paul said that for the two years that he was with the Corinthians that he determined not to know anything among them but Christ and Him crucified.

The Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ is not an objective we aim to get to but our whole message. Men will throw up every block that they can, such as questions about anything and everything, in order to keep from having to deal with Christ. Our business is to make them deal with Christ.

 

[file13]

Apologetics is telling folks what you are, sin, and your total dependency on Christ alone and why. Paul said that for the two years that he was with the Corinthians that he determined not to know anything among them but Christ and Him crucified.

That sounds like evangelism, not apologetics. Are you saying that we should not defend the faith and only preach the Gospel?

Again, thank God you're doing better, and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

[twin1954]

That sounds like evangelism, not apologetics. Are you saying that we should not defend the faith and only preach the Gospel?

Preaching the Gospel is defending the faith. Apologetics is evangelism otherwise there is no point to apologetics except as an intellectual excercise. Again what good have done the soul if you argue him into a corner so that he must accept your argument? You haven't made a believer out of him you have only defeated him in argument. Satan loves what is known today as apologetics because it take the focus off of Christ.

The first thing Peter said was sanctify Christ in your heart and then you are ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you. The answer is always Christ. A child can give that answer as well as a gown and educated man.

Again, thank God you're doing better, and thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

God has been merciful. It is my pleasure.

 

[file13]

Preaching the Gospel is defending the faith. Apologetics is evangelism otherwise there is no point to apologetics except as an intellectual excercise. Again what good have done the soul if you argue him into a corner so that he must accept your argument? You haven't made a believer out of him you have only defeated him in argument. Satan loves what is known today as apologetics because it take the focus off of Christ.

I gotcha. But you seem to have a very specific view of "apologetics" here, that I don't think reflects what "defending the faith" is all about. The purpose of apologetics is not to beat someone in an argument, but to show that our faith is not a blind leap into the dark. We have very good reasons to believe what we believe.

For example, how would you respond if someone asked you what makes you think God exists?

 

[twin1954]

I gotcha. But you seem to have a very specific view of "apologetics" here, that I don't think reflects what "defending the faith" is all about. The purpose of apologetics is not to beat someone in an argument, but to show that our faith is not a blind leap into the dark. We have very good reasons to believe what we believe.

Yes we have very good reasons to believe what we believe. But you will never convince an unbeliever into faith by giving him a defense of the faith. One either believes or he doesn't. The only one who can convince him into faith is the Spirit. The Spirit's work, according to John 16, is to convince of sin because they do not believe on Christ, of righteousness because He must be their righteousness, and of judgment because judgment is passed and the prince of this world is judged. The Spirit's work is to teach the things of Christ. If that ever happens you will not need to give a logical reason for faith.

Faith is very logical but unbelievers are insane.

I do have a very specific view of apologatics but it is the Biblical view. The "apologetics" practiced today is a result of natural religious thought and therefore a man made "method" to do the work of the Spirit. When Paul persuaded men, Acts 18:4, he opened the Scripture unto them and preached Christ.

For example, how would you respond if someone asked you what makes you think God exists?

My answer would simply be because He does and He deals with all men either in Adam or in Christ. If He deals with us in Adam we are damned and if He deals with us in Christ we are forever blessed. Rom. 5, 1Cor. 15

I don't need to convince them that God is for they already know it is truth though they deny it. Romans 1:18-19.
Men have devised apologetics because they really don't believe that the preaching of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe. Rom. 1:16. 1Cor. 1:18

The simple fact is that folks either believe the Bible is true or they don't. You will not convince them with a "method" or argument because they are dead and blind. Still you can believe that the Bible is true and be damned.
Folks don't need to have a defense of the truth of God they must deal with the claims of Christ.