Question From A New Christian

Nathan Poe · Sep 21, 2004

Cybershark5886 said:
Aren't you forgetting 2Tim. 3:16 where it says: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"?

So how exactly does that prove that all scripture is inspired by God?

I can see that you are also a Christian but I cannot see what alternate translations that you propose for Genesis. Do you or don't you beleive God when he said on Mt. Sinai that he created the world in six days?

My Biblical History is a little off, but I thought Sinai was where He gave Moses the 10C...

And also seeing the the process in which evolution takes place (in which, as many evolutionists have pointed out, that process is an "immense number of deaths"). Do you really think that God would bring about man through billions of years of painful, chancy, random processes of death and adaptation?

Why not? He's been doing it ever since man came on the scene...

Wouldn't it seem more likely that the Bible (which is inspired by God 2Tim. 3:16) would have accurately portrayed the 6 day creation and formation of Adam from the ground?

Obviously no. You seem to believe in a very limited God.

Especially since (as if Genesis' word wasn't good enough) God repeated it himself in Mt. Sinai? God didn't say up on the Mountain: "I brought about man through a long, death filled process in which organisms struggled to adapt and survive in a harsh environment and acheived those adaptations by evolution.". No he said that he made man from the dust on the sixth day, and they were present in a paradise (not a world of adverse conditions). Why do you fail to see the simplicty and truthfullness of the Genesis story?

Because the simple answers are not always the true ones.

It says in the Scriptures :"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." That is what evolution is doing. It is beguiling, appealing (if you will) to our scientific intellect and curiosity, and corrupting us with its subtlety. And notice that it mentions SIMPLICITY in Christ. There is no complicated matters in Jesus (the Word who was with God in the beginning). The Bible is truth, and Jesus said that by studying God's Word that the truth would be made known to you and that it would set you free. Why don't you allow yourself to be set free from the idea that the Bible is something that must be explained by scientific means to conform to the views of the world? That's exactly what we should NOT do. We should abide in the simplicity that is in Christ and abide in his word, which is truth.

Too much simplicity makes for simpletons. Just a thought.

And if you don't beleive those Scripture verses that I quoted above, then the effects of taking the Bible non-litterally have already gotten to you.

Here is the inevitable appeal to self-authority: To disagree with you is to disagree with the Bible.

You are now ready to add your own book: "We'll slide you in neatly between Numbers and Deutoronomy." --Henry Drummond, Inheirit the Wind.

Who then decides when the Bible is and isn't litteral? You?

Well, certainly not you.

God repremanded Job for his lack of understanding of God's works and all that he does.

Precisely! His WORKS. As in Creation itself, which you choose to ignore.

You don't want to be repremanded to the point of denial to enter Heaven on Judgement day because you wanted to treat some important scripture as non-literal and open to personal interpretation, instead of seeing what God was inspiring in the hearts of men to write down.

More self-authority: Believe me or go to hell.

How tedious.

The Bible IS God inspired, thus is God's Word, and his word it truth. Plain and SIMPLE. Like Christ.

Because you say so, or because it says so?

I fear Christians like you will send h2whoa scurrying back to Atheism.
And it would be a shame for that to happen before the EAC got a crack at him...

Arikay · Sep 21, 2004

As Nathan said, who created the canon?

And no, Darwin did not refute some of his work before he died. The story of his deathbed conversion was a fabrication.
I don't know why God would evolve us from a common ancestor to a monkey, but his creation says he did. Maybe you are interpreting the bible wrong.
If you are a Young Earth Creationist you also have to ignore modern physics, geology, astronomy, etc. So you would have run into problems in physics as well.

Cybershark5886 said:
Is this verse talking about all canon?
At the time if its writting did it even know what would be considered biblical canon?

Hopefully I suficiently answered that question in my previous post above about the Apocrypha.

Anyway, I GTG to bed. So I'll talk to my brothers in Christ (you guys) tommorow, God willing.

G'night and God bless.

~Cybershark5886

Nathan Poe · Sep 21, 2004

Arikay said:
And no, Darwin did not refute some of his work before he died. The story of his deathbed conversion was a fabrication.

Sad how some creationists insist on lying as a method to spread truth.

I don't know why God would evolve us from a common ancestor to a monkey, but his creation says he did. Maybe you are interpreting the bible wrong.

Why? A lesson in humility comes to mind. I know a lot of people who could use one...

If you are a Young Earth Creationist you also have to ignore modern physics, geology, astronomy, etc. So you would have run into problems in physics as well.

Deny the process, but reap the rewards. Oh well...

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

h2whoa said:
Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?

You see, I believe that science and religion can actually co-exist. Just as the Computer Programmer uses code to create an application, I think that the Laws of science are like God's computer code to make this application (the World) work.

Am I alone in that belief?

H2

Welcome to the boards, and congratulations on meeting the savior. It is the one irreplaceable relationship in this world.
As for an answer to your direct question, I believe it is a matter of interpretation. Where tenants of faith are concerned if we agree on those, we are free to disagree on the others. My interpretation is that Evolution and God are as opposite as Christ and AntiChrist. That said, it doesn't make me correct and others incorrect. Instead it is the understanding I have at this point. The greater matter is as Paul exhorted in the epistles - it is better to not eat meat than to stumble a brother. In this case it is better for me gentley lay out my opinion if asked rather than attempt to convert all those who are otherwise saved.
All things need to point to a relationship with Christ for the Believer, and whatever is not of faith is sin. I welcome you and hope that I can assist in doctrinal areas if need be. Where evolution is concerned, I am learning the opposition, I'm just not as yet drinking the kool aid.

Hydra009 · Sep 21, 2004

Cybershark5886 said:
Look man. I can understand your frustration.

It's like having to prove heliocentrism to someone who believes the Sun revolves around the Earth and believes that accepting heliocentrism is blasphemy. "Frustration" is a mild way of putting it.

I love studying in depth into Christian Science (the fields are extremely compatible - but evolution isn't)

No offense, but "Christian Science" is an oxymoron. There is no "Christian gravity" or "Christian bacterium" or "Christian fossil". Science is not something that is limited to only one sect or one religion, it is universal to all mankind.

and several "neutral" scientists should we call them have seen order and complexity in the universe that led them to the NATURAL conclusion that there must be a creator out there some where! God is amazing and even says in his scriptures that the Heavens (cosmos) declare the Glory of God, and elsewhere that people will have no excuse in the end to have not seen evidence of God in creation.

Some scientists are theists. Good for them.

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

hussbob said:
...
I will now bow out of this in the shame of knowing i have not been able to fullfil my christian reponsibility of being able to give account for my belifes. I have alot more learning to do as do we all.

Good luck with your new found Christianity.

Hope I haven't caused upset and will hold my tongue in future.

Should have remembered the saying that goes something like "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than speak and remove all doubt."

Hussbob,
Don't bow out now, and for all that is true don't feel guilty that Evolutionists can spit more words that send you scrambling for a dictionary than a talking Thesaurus. These are folks that understand their side of the debate and your first refutation. They are learned (most of them), but they are every bit on the path as you are. The art of debate involves the intestinal fortitude to be smacked in the mouth hard (metephorically speaking of course) and still understand why you believe what you believe, and that nothing can take that away from you.
Example:
I don't believe in the Bible because so many people say so. I have read it. I have applied it, I have seen it work in my life. Where it requires faith I have faith, where I must be curious about history and the many attacks of the world I remain convinced based on my reasonable understanding of what I know to be true.
Never forget in any debate the rule-setter always has the advantage, and that facts don't make truth. You can stack reliable facts in a number of contorted ways to make anything appear plausible - especially to those susceptible to the Jedi Mind trick. Lets not forget that truth isn't based on an opinion shouted loudly enough or repeated often enough. Instead it is based on undeniable axioms of existence - and that existence given divinely from God.
Don't hang your head. Raise it and accept the challenge.

ForeRunner · Sep 21, 2004

Then maybe you can explain to me how true statments can have false consequences?

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

Vance said:
...Days does, indeed, mean 24 hour days, but the whole thing is meant to be read non-literally. Figuratively, allegorically.

What leads you (inside the Bible) to believe that Genesis was intended to be read allegorically?

Vance said:
It is TRUTH, of course, since it is God's Holy Word.

AWA

Vance said:
If it was just a question of YOM, then that would be one thing. But most of us Christians who accept evolution do not base our reading of Genesis 1 and 2 on a day=age basis.

Maybe true, but when in Luke accounts for the Geneology of Christ from Joseph (his supposed father) to Adam, at which point does the Geneology become allegory? IOW which one of 'the the son of's' do you throw away?

Vance said:
We also do not place man's knowledge over God's Word.

We are also led by the Spirit.

We are not "worldly" christian compromisers.

If this is true, please show within the scriptures where allegory is the appropriate view of the Genesis account. I am not questioning your faith, just your argument that you are not allowing Man's itellect to trump inspiration.

Vance said:
We are similar to those Christians back in the late Renaissance who said, "hey, now, maybe that scientist Galileo is right about this earth around the sun stuff, and our literal interpretation of Scripture is simply wrong. Maybe we shouldn't actually condemn this guy of heresy for saying something that contradicts our human reading of Scripture, the guy may be right!!!!"

It took a while for the rest of the Christians to come around and agree that their literal reading was wrong and accept what science was telling them. Amazingly, the Church did not come to an end because they had to accept that their literal interpretation of Scripture was in error.

The Bible did not teach that the world is flat. I know that there were those that believe that it did, and I know there are those that would love to believe that it was the Bible that spawned the notion. The Bible is clear the Earth as is a circle is round. It has never stated that the Earth is flat.

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

ForeRunner said:
Then maybe you can explain to me how true statments can have false consequences?

Not so sure this was intended for me....

I said facts can be stacked in contrted ways to make almost anything plausible. Look at the OJ case for proof.

Physics_guy · Sep 21, 2004

The Bible is clear the Earth as is a circle is round. It has never stated that the Earth is flat.

Umm, circles are flat.

Arikay · Sep 21, 2004

No, the bible doesn't teach the earth is spherical, that is a modern interpretation. We know that the common hebrew view was of a flat earth.

I do find it interesting that in this thread it's some christians that are pushing for science to disprove the bible.

Out of curiousity why are you ignoring Gods creation when you interpret the bible?

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

Physics_guy said:
Umm, circles are flat.

Actually circles are a planar collection of points equidistant from the center, and not of any three dimentional object at all. When they are flat they are drawn (estimated) on paper, and then they are flat, because you have assigned the plane. Only when you take a non dimensional concept and put it to paper is it flat. Take the planar assignement away (remove it from paper and leave it in concept only. When looking at the Earth from any angle, the outline is indeed a circle.

Miah · Sep 21, 2004

What we call discoveries were put in place before we knew what was happening.
People who believe in evolution aside from it being the detailed handy work of God
are like CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS fans still celebrating his so-called discovery of America.
God is a revealer the Bible is Gods word because it tells why how when where what for?
just because some men can't get past how doesn't mean the questions aren't answered...they all are. Jesus says in Luke 12:7 - But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
If he is that detailed then he can cause things to adapt to their environment and do what he pleases with his creations.

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

Arikay said:
No, the bible doesn't teach the earth is spherical, that is a modern interpretation. We know that the common hebrew view was of a flat earth.

See above post in response to PG.

Arikay said:
I do find it interesting that in this thread it's some christians that are pushing for science to disprove the bible.

Indeed. Christians are repsonding to the notion that as man's understanding of the universe grows, he renders God more and more obsolete.

Arikay said:
Out of curiousity why are you ignoring Gods creation when you interpret the bible?

I don't. I neither make it the basis for my understanding of the Bible. When I view creation I view it through the prism of the truth of the scripture. I attempt to view all things through that same prism. The scripture is the cornerstone, life rests on it.

Arikay · Sep 21, 2004

Heh, you will read that much into a single word but refuse to believe genesis can be allegory. Literalism is a strange belief indeed.

Literally the bible says the earth is a circle. Now you can add in the belief that its describing the outline of a sphere, but you aren't really reading it literally anymore but assuming things that it doesn't specifically say.

w81minit said:
Actually circles are a planar collection of points equidistant from the center, and not of any three dimentional object at all. When they are flat they are drawn (estimated) on paper, and then they are flat, because you have assigned the plane. Only when you take a non dimensional concept and put it to paper is it flat. Take the planar assignement away (remove it from paper and leave it in concept only. When looking at the Earth from any angle, the outline is indeed a circle.

w81minit · Sep 21, 2004

Arikay said:
Heh, you will read that much into a single word but refuse to believe genesis can be allegory. Literalism is a strange belief indeed.

Literally the bible says the earth is a circle. Now you can add in the belief that its describing the outline of a sphere, but you aren't really reading it literally anymore but assuming things that it doesn't specifically say.

I am not reading anything into it. It says that it is a circle, and it is a circle. That we are debating that it doesn't say sphere doesn't pale to the comparison of making an entire portion of scripture and the corroberating portions found throughout the remaining text allegory.
I asked the question, and no one seems to want to answer. In Luke 3, which one of the 'the son of's' do we throw away, because Christ's geneology is traced back to Adam - a fictional Character.

Arikay · Sep 21, 2004

Sorry to tell you but supporting creationism is just helping people render God obsolete. By saying creationism is right or the bible is wrong, most people are going to say that the bible is wrong.

Do you ever take into account whether you are interpreting scripture wrong?
If Gods creation contradicts the bible, which is wrong, Gods creation or the bible?

w81minit said:
See above post in response to PG.

Indeed. Christians are repsonding to the notion that as man's understanding of the universe grows, he renders God more and more obsolete.

I don't. I neither make it the basis for my understanding of the Bible. When I view creation I view it through the prism of the truth of the scripture. I attempt to view all things through that same prism. The scripture is the cornerstone, life rests on it.

Arikay · Sep 21, 2004

Really, your not reading anything into it.
It says circle and you are assuming it really means the outline of the earth. and thats not reading into it. Um, ok, I think you need to check your Demon.

I don't know when its fictional characters, I would say that a literal Adam and a Literal noah are fictional characters.

w81minit said:
I am not reading anything into it. It says that it is a circle, and it is a circle. That we are debating that it doesn't say sphere doesn't pale to the comparison of making an entire portion of scripture and the corroberating portions found throughout the remaining text allegory.
I asked the question, and no one seems to want to answer. In Luke 3, which one of the 'the son of's' do we throw away, because Christ's geneology is traced back to Adam - a fictional Character.

Les Grands Pieds · Sep 21, 2004

I disagree with the last posting. It's pretty clear to me that all this scientific research is just bringing us closer and closer to the truth! You do believe the Bible is truth, don't you? If you do, then what do you have to fear? I encourage people to challenge the Bible because it's ideas have always been so far ahead of science, it's crazy!
A guy at my church has been doing research and he has concluded that humans and dinosaurs could have co-existed, but they just weren't in the same part of the world as were the people of the day. I think that's a pretty cool idea, but I just try not to let stuff like that bother me. There are a lot of things in life that only our fathers will be able to explain to us when we go to heaven, ya know?
Be still and know that He is God.
Don't fret about these tiny details. When it comes down to it, the way we were created is meaningless compared to the God himself by whom we were created.

Arikay · Sep 21, 2004

The problem is that people seem to think that creationism = the bible.
Creationism has been challenged and it loses everytime. Thus the bible loses everytime.
This is why linking creationism with christianity is dangerous, it destroys christianity.

Les Grands Pieds said:
I disagree with the last posting. It's pretty clear to me that all this scientific research is just bringing us closer and closer to the truth! You do believe the Bible is truth, don't you? If you do, then what do you have to fear? I encourage people to challenge the Bible because it's ideas have always been so far ahead of science, it's crazy!
A guy at my church has been doing research and he has concluded that humans and dinosaurs could have co-existed, but they just weren't in the same part of the world as were the people of the day. I think that's a pretty cool idea, but I just try not to let stuff like that bother me. There are a lot of things in life that only our fathers will be able to explain to us when we go to heaven, ya know?
Be still and know that He is God.
Don't fret about these tiny details. When it comes down to it, the way we were created is meaningless compared to the God himself by whom we were created.

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