• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Question From A New Christian

h2whoa

Ace2whoa - resident geneticist
Sep 21, 2004
2,573
286
43
Manchester, UK
✟4,091.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Hello all.

As I said in the subject I am only a recent convert away from Atheism. The problem that I am having is that I am currently doing a PhD in Medical Genetics so I know quite a lot about the whole general area of genetics, Evolution and Darwin.

Now my issue is that, from what I have seen, the theory of Evolution is fundamentally sound. Now I'm not saying that it's not open to change or even that we understand it especially well but the central principle, I believe, is true.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?

You see, I believe that science and religion can actually co-exist. Just as the Computer Programmer uses code to create an application, I think that the Laws of science are like God's computer code to make this application (the World) work.

Am I alone in that belief?

H2
 

Nathan Poe

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2002
32,198
1,693
51
United States
✟41,319.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
Nobody's saying that it's not open to change. The Theory is as sound as it can be based on what we currently know.

Of course, tomorrow we may learn something new which throws what we currently know on its ear. That's what discovery is all about.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?
Of course. It's called Theistic Evolution and it's the belief held by the majority of Christians.

My understanding of "Christian" (back when I was one) was someone who believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, come to Earth to forgive mankind of their sins.

Now, I don't see anything in that definition that requires a literal, word-for-word belief in the book of Genesis (or any other part of the Bible, for that matter, but that's another story).

The Bible is not, nor was ever meant to be, a step-by-step science textbook. And considering how relatively few people understand evolution today, it's not unreasonable that it would need to be "simplified" for the Ancient Hebrews to know what they had to.

Or to put it more simply, Genesis tells who and why, science shows how.

Not even close to alone. Welcome to the boards.
 
Upvote 0

bevets

Active Member
Aug 22, 2003
378
11
Visit site
✟581.00
Faith
Christian
Evolution makes God superfluous. God makes evolution superfluous.

All we can say about such beliefs is, firstly, that they are superfluous and, secondly, that they assume the existence of the main thing we want to explain, namely, organized complexity. ~ Richard Dawkins

Occasionally, a scientist discouraged by the consistent failure of theories purporting to explain some problem like the first appearance of life will suggest that perhaps supernatural creation is a tenable hypothesis in this one instance. Sophisticated naturalists instantly recoil with horror, because they know that there is no way to tell God when he has to stop. If God created the first organism, then how do we know he didn't do the same thing to produce all those animal groups that appear so suddenly in the Cambrian rocks? Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing? ~ Phillip Johnson
 
Upvote 0

Didaskomenos

Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Feb 11, 2002
1,057
40
GA
Visit site
✟25,661.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Welcome to the boards! Most of the people here are evolutionists, both Christian and non. I myself am also a theistic evolutionist. Using your knowledge of science to inform you how to interpret the Bible will offend some who prefer their own literalistic approach. You know you aren't a part of an atheistic conspiracy, as some anti-evolutionists will tell you. It's all about how to interpret the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Dal M.

...more things in heaven and earth, Horatio...
Jan 28, 2004
1,144
177
43
Ohio
✟17,258.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Phillip Johnson said:
Given the existence of a designer ready and willing to do the work, why should we suppose that random mutations and natural selection are responsible for such marvels of engineering as the eye and the wing?

We shouldn't suppose that "the eye" and "the wing" evolved. Rather, we are unavoidably drawn to the conclusion that whether or not a celestial hand was working behind the scenes to arrange for the existence of eyes and wings, evolution was the mechanism directly responsible for their development.

(Of course, there've been a lot of different versions of "the eye" and "the wing" throughout history. If God had been magically creating them from scratch each time, you'd think there'd be more evidence for a Common Designer than for Common Ancestry; for example, He could've given us squidlike eyes instead of eyes with blind spots on the retinas like all other mammals have.)
 
Reactions: USincognito
Upvote 0

hussbob

Member
Jul 15, 2004
12
0
44
Wrexham
✟22,622.00
Faith
Christian
The theroy of evolution is not sound. It is highly flawed. It relies on an addition of information to genetics to create the lifeforms. No observational science has ever observed an addition of information to the genetics ever. Mutations etc can alter the genes to allow various things such a speacialization and adaptation but this usually involves a loss of information and at the very most the amount of information remains the same. Nothing in christianity or the bible denies the exsistance of natural selection and adaptation (in fact we can observe this ourselves with pedeigree dogs etc) but the evolution involving an addition of information to the genes is unlikly.

Therefore molecules to man evolution is highly flawed.

Also the results from experiments into origin are biased from the outset. If you belive in evolution and interpret the results as such then you will fix results to suit yourself and the the bible follows.

If however you use the bible as the bases for how you interpret the information then you paint an entirely different picture one which fits both the evidence and the bible. The evidence doesn't even need to be twisted it just fits.

We all think of evolutionary theroy as being relitively new and ground breaking but it is not. It stems from pagan belifes. Wallace (thought of as co-founder of evolution alongside darwin) studied spiritulism and from here came to the conclusion of evolution.

Some of you may like to read Isiah 29 13-16, 1 Tim 6:20, 1john 2:18 and 1 corinthians 1 there are countless others as well.

Bearing in mind Jesus did not question Genesis in fact if you read John, Jesus created the world. Now Jesus came to dispell many mis interpretations etc. You think he would have started on Genesis if it were wrong but he didn't.

1 In the beginning was the word (jesus), and the word was with God, and the word was God. (trinity of father, son, holy ghost being God)
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him ALL things were made...... now look at Genesis.
 
Upvote 0

Mistermystery

Here's looking at you kid
Apr 19, 2004
4,220
169
✟5,275.00
Faith
Atheist
Welcome to the forums.

First I want to direct you to here: http://www.christianforums.com/t873617
See how 0 people have voted for option #2? Noone is saying that Evolution isn't open for change.

What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution?
Of course! You can be a christian evolutionist, or a theistic evolutionist. You believe that God created the diversity of species with evolution as His tool.

Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?
It's sure it's a methaphor. Evidence points to that.

Am I alone in that belief?
Oh God no. Most Christians in the world think that way, especially here in Yurp
 
Upvote 0

Tomk80

Titleless
Apr 27, 2004
11,570
429
45
Maastricht
Visit site
✟36,582.00
Faith
Agnostic
misquote from bevets said:
All we can say about such beliefs is, firstly, that they are superfluous and, secondly, that they assume the existence of the main thing we want to explain, namely, organized complexity. ~ Richard Dawkins
Yes Bevets, we are aware that Dawkins is an atheist. However, with this he is threading outside of the realm of science. This is his opinion, and the opinions of many christian evolutionists differ from him. Dawkings is a brilliant scientist, but he can be wrong. His writings are not absolute truth, nor are they some kind of 'gospel for the evolutionist'. As I said before, quit the quote mining for once, it has absolutely zilch effect.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single

There are a number of Christians on this forum that have no trouble believing that God used evolution to create.

While I am not certain as to whether the bible was truely inspired by God, I am certain that the details of Genesis were not taken directly from God... there are too many mistakes and contradictions (for example, plants being created before the Sun, and the differences in the order of creation between Genesis 1 and 2). The creation stories in the bible are meant to relay theological content rather than scientific.

For example, I consider that the story of how Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs shows how a man is incomplete without a woman (she is a part of him), rather than showing the historical method that God used to create the first woman. Taking this story as an allegory frees one from the obvious problem that cloning a person from Adam's rib will result in another Adam (with a XY chromosome profile), rather than a woman.
 
Upvote 0

Mistermystery

Here's looking at you kid
Apr 19, 2004
4,220
169
✟5,275.00
Faith
Atheist
P.s. keep asking questions. As you might have noticed we've got people here who want you to listen to them, and to them only, because they are somehow the arbiter of truth... I suggest that you keep on learning by asking questions, and we will do our best to awnser everything as good as we can.
 
Upvote 0

Tomk80

Titleless
Apr 27, 2004
11,570
429
45
Maastricht
Visit site
✟36,582.00
Faith
Agnostic
Please define information and how it relates to genetics. Please explain how mutations occur and how they can only decrease the amount of information as related to genetics. In other words, please show me that you know what you are talking about, because after reading the above I think you don't.

Asides from that. 'Molecules to man evolution' is a strawman of the worst kind. Fan of Kent Hovind by any chance?
 
Upvote 0

caravelair

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2004
2,107
77
46
✟25,119.00
Faith
Atheist

sorry my friend, but you are totally incorrect about this. here is an excerpt from an essay i wrote on the subject:


this demonstrates that your argument is invalid.

i will have to post my references separately, since otherwise this post is too long...
 
Upvote 0

caravelair

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2004
2,107
77
46
✟25,119.00
Faith
Atheist
references...

(1) Answers in Genesis. “That depends on what your definition of ‘information’ is”. Answers in Genesis. [Online]. Available: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative7-24-2000.asp, Jan. 12, 2004.

(2) Boraas, Martin E. and Boxhorn, Joseph E. and Seale, Dianne B. 1998. “Phagotrophy by a flagellate selects for colonial prey: A possible origin of multicellularity”. Evolutionary Ecology. 12 (2): 153-164. Also available online: http://www.kluweronline.com/oasis.htm/171545, Jan. 12, 2004.

(3) Conery, John S. and Lynch, Michael. 2003. “The Origins of Genome Complexity”. Science. 302: 1401-04.

(4) Isaak, Mark. Ed. “Index to Creationist Claims”. The Talk.Origins Archive. 2003. [Online]. Available: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA111.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(5) Interview with Phillip E. Johnson. Touchstone Magazine. 2002. Available online:
http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/15.5docs/15-5pg40.html



(6) Long, M. 2001. “Evolution of Novel Genes”. Current Opinion in Genetics & Development. Dec. 11(6): 673-80. Reproduced in PubMed. [Online]. Available: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11682312&dopt=Abstract, Jan. 12, 2004.

(7) MacKay, David J.C. Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms. Cambridge University Press, 2003. Also available online: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~mackay/itprnn/book.pdf.

(8) Musgrave, Ian, and Pirie-Shepherd, Steven, and Theobald, Douglas. 2003. “Apolipoprotein AI Mutations and Information”. The Talk.Origins Archive. [Online]. Available: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(9) National Center for Science Education. “Voices for Evolution” National Center for Science Education. [Online]. Available: http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=2, Jan. 12, 2004.

(10) Nei, Masatoshi. Ed. “De novo insertion of an intron into the mammalian sex determining gene, SRY”. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA. 1998 February 17; 95 (4): 1653–1657. [Online]. Available: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9465071&dopt=Abstract, Jan. 12, 2004.

(11) Rosenberg, Helene F. and Zhang, Jianzhi and Zhang, Ya-ping. “Adaptive evolution of a duplicated pancreatic ribonuclease gene in a leaf-eating monkey”. Nature. 30 no. 4: 411-415. [Online]. Available: http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ng/journal/v30/n4/abs/ng852.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(12) Ross-Flannigan, Nancy. Ed. “How gene duplication helps in adapting to changing environments”. University of Michigan News and Information Services. [Online]. Available: http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/Releases/2002/Feb02/r022802b.html, Jan. 12, 2004.

(13) Spetner, Lee. “Lee Spetner/Edward Max Dialogue”. The True.Origins Archive. [Online]. 2002. Available: http://www.trueorigins.org/spetner2.asp, Jan. 12, 2004.

(14) Spetner, Lee. “The Nylon Bug”. [Online]. 2002. Available: http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id89.htm, Jan. 12, 2004.

(15) Theobald, Douglas, PhD. “29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent”. The Talk.Origins Archive. [Online] http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/, Jan. 12, 2004.

(16) Thomas, Dave. “Evolution and Information”. New Mexicans for Science and Reason. [Online]. Available http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm, Jan. 12, 2004.
 
Upvote 0

Didaskomenos

Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Feb 11, 2002
1,057
40
GA
Visit site
✟25,661.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
h2whoa said:
What I want to know, is there room for my belief in God and Jesus to believe Evolution? Does creation have to be taken literally or is it possible it was a metaphor to give people in the pre-science age a general picture of how things began?
I just caught this paragraph. That's a pretty good assessment. The Genesis creation accounts were written in the style of etiological mythology, and their purpose was to correct pagan beliefs of Who was responsible for and in charge of their universe.
 
Upvote 0

h2whoa

Ace2whoa - resident geneticist
Sep 21, 2004
2,573
286
43
Manchester, UK
✟4,091.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
You're quite wrong actually. Bacteria frequently transfer genetic information from species to another, resulting in a net increase in genetic information in the organism. In more complex organisms DNA has the ability to replicate specific parts meaning that there are two copies of the same bit. One bit can then mutate into something else whilst leaving an unaffected copy behind. This also results in a net gain of genetic information.

As for saying that experiments into origin are biased from the outset, I think that's something of a sweeping generalisation. I think that the most biased are those who assume that people can't investigate things and accept what they see rather than see what they accept.

H2
 
Reactions: Mistermystery
Upvote 0

Nathan Poe

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2002
32,198
1,693
51
United States
✟41,319.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
Lol... I was just about to post a response to the strawmen, misrepresentations, and outright lies in the statement you answered, but it looks like you beat me to it.

I think you'll do just fine around here.

But can you imagine how many new Christians have been sent scurrying back to Atheism because they were lead to believe that "the Faith" requires swallowing the hogwash you responded to?
 
Upvote 0

hussbob

Member
Jul 15, 2004
12
0
44
Wrexham
✟22,622.00
Faith
Christian
But light was created before plants. Plants don't need the sun they need light. Just so happen that now the light is supplied by the sun.
 
Upvote 0