Question for YECs about the ark

[shernren]

Scientists do not tell us dinosaurs existed because we can just as easy find a fossil in the backyard that proves they did. Scientists do not tell us species in the world, as that is just as easily be verified by anyone with free time and money to travel. Evidence is evidence regardless. That sounds like pulling strings at an argument that is irrelevant.

And do you know they were dinosaur bones? Hey, how do you even know they were bones? They might just be bone-shaped rocks. God can make bone-shaped rocks.

Dinosaurs are just more evidence that creationism accepts science unquestioningly for the most part.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:Show me where scripture says that. We should not invent miracles to clear up problems with beliefs.

Nowhere. But why don't you tell me how did it happen.

Don't know exactly. But I'm not going to confabulate stories and pretend I know.

I guess the best you can say is that it did not happen.

Or that it seems to have happened, but maybe the way some people imagined it to have happened is clearly impossible.

That is not an argument.

But it is a good conclusion, from the facts. Creating new stories and inserting them into scripture is a bad idea.

 

[dies-l]

Barbarian observes:Show me where scripture says that. We should not invent miracles to clear up problems with beliefs.

...
But it is a good conclusion, from the facts. Creating new stories and inserting them into scripture is a bad idea.[/quote]

I agree with you in that I don't believe that we should assume miracles that the Bible never mentions in order to justify or "prove" a given interpretation of Scripture.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The bible is notably scarce on many details, so we get to fill some in. For example as there were "two manner of peoples" in the womb of Rebecca (Esau was "red and hairy", as are his descendants today) why couldn't there be "two (or more) manner of animals" in the womb of some of those on the ark? If God was going to repopulate the earth with a great variety of critters this is a great way to do it, eh?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...
But it is a good conclusion, from the facts. Creating new stories and inserting them into scripture is a bad idea.

Forgive me for breaking into this thread this way. Your calculations about the floor space of the ark neglect the true construction as described in Genesis, which was perfectly suited, and easily large enough, for it's task.

It has already been calculated that the volume of the ark could easily accomodate as many critters as could be estimated to have lived back then. All that was needed was to divide up that volume into areas (width, length, and height) suitable for the various kinds/species (or whatever).

This problem is solved by the nests (or cells) that were to be built into the arks construction (See Strong's for "rooms"). The three levels were just the platforms upon which these "rooms" were to be built. In addition to the huge number of nests possible, the cells, or honeycomb, design would have given the ark incredible strength.

owg

 

[juvenissun]

Barbarian observes:Show me where scripture says that. We should not invent miracles to clear up problems with beliefs.

Don't know exactly. But I'm not going to confabulate stories and pretend I know.

Or that it seems to have happened, but maybe the way some people imagined it to have happened is clearly impossible.

But it is a good conclusion, from the facts. Creating new stories and inserting them into scripture is a bad idea.

What is wrong to say that angels did it? It is the same as saying God does it, but with a next level mechanism. I can't say it is true, but you can't say it is false either. If so, and if I like to suggest that, what is wrong?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So, based on currently living species, we looking at at least 110,000 animals sharing no more than 101,250 sq. feet of floor space and no more than 1.5 million cubic feet of total volume. For this to be feasible, the average animal would need no more than 1 sq. foot of floor space and no more than 13 cubic feet of volume to survive 150 days. Now, adding to this that many YECs believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted until recently, the space on the ark becomes even more cramped, because if this is true, in addition to the animals already mentioned, we would now need to make room for two of every dinosaur, many of which were quite large considerably more than 1 sq. foot.

I read somewhere that the average animal size was about that of a racooon. Using your figure of 13 cubic feet per critter each could have a pen, or "nest" of about 3' by 3' by 18" high, or, 2' by 4' by 18" high ( or dimensions thereabouts). Seems like adequate space to me for both comfort and security. Also there were (and are) very few clean animals compared the unclean ones. Also although the wording is ambiguous I think there were actually two pairs of unclean, not just one pair. This would ensure against inbreeding at least for awhile.

owg

 

[Assyrian]

Show me where scripture says that. We should not invent miracles to clear up problems with beliefs.

What is wrong to say that angels did it? It is the same as saying God does it, but with a next level mechanism. I can't say it is true, but you can't say it is false either. If so, and if I like to suggest that, what is wrong?

2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
1Cor 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
Although the bible is quite keen on miracles, it does not seem to be in favour of making them up.

 

[juvenissun]

2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
1Cor 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
Although the bible is quite keen on miracles, it does not seem to be in favour of making them up.

My interpretation about how did animals get to the Ark has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus and the Gospel, and I am not making or enriching any myth. Since the Bible does not record most of the processes happened in the Genesis, I am simply trying to fill in the blank. It could be wrong, but until then, I think it could be right.

 

[visionary]

The lion could lay with the lamb.. as this is God ordained pair of animals that comes and enters the ark.

 

[Assyrian]

2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
1Cor 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
Although the bible is quite keen on miracles, it does not seem to be in favour of making them up.

My interpretation about how did animals get to the Ark has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus and the Gospel, and I am not making or enriching any myth. Since the Bible does not record most of the processes happened in the Genesis, I am simply trying to fill in the blank. It could be wrong, but until then, I think it could be right.

You mean cleverly devised myths and misrepresenting God are alright as long as it is not about the Gospel or Jesus Christ? If you make up miracles that have no basis in the bible, how is that not making up myths and misrepresenting God?

I appreciate the fact you realise your explanation is tentative and could be wrong, many of your fellow Creationists are not so wise or restrained. But you still see yourself filling in blanks in the biblical account, on the basis God must have done something to fill the blanks in. The problem is these blanks are simply in your interpretation of the biblical account and God had no obligation to sort those problems out. For example, if the flood was local the problem of accommodating all the species in the world disappears. So does getting rid of all the water, it can simply recede, as the biblical account says, when God sent the wind.

 

[juvenissun]

You mean cleverly devised myths and misrepresenting God are alright as long as it is not about the Gospel or Jesus Christ? If you make up miracles that have no basis in the bible, how is that not making up myths and misrepresenting God?

I appreciate the fact you realise your explanation is tentative and could be wrong, many of your fellow Creationists are not so wise or restrained. But you still see yourself filling in blanks in the biblical account, on the basis God must have done something to fill the blanks in. The problem is these blanks are simply in your interpretation of the biblical account and God had no obligation to sort those problems out. For example, if the flood was local the problem of accommodating all the species in the world disappears. So does getting rid of all the water, it can simply recede, as the biblical account says, when God sent the wind.

You are right. If the Flood is taken as a metaphor, then there is not any blank left to be filled. But, if one participated in the discussion of this issue, then the premise is that the Flood literally happened. Than, there would be a lot of blanks to be filled.

Under that situation, giving suggestions to some of the blanks should not be said as to misrepresent God. If you like, you may give yours and I won't say you are trying to misguide anyone. Provided that I certainly have my reasons behind my version of answers.

 

[Assyrian]

If you want to go for a literal flood, why not go for a literal local flood which fits the text and you don't have all the blanks you need to fill by making up miracles?