Question for ya

[Benedicta00]

Lotar

May I ask something personal . . do you have children? And have any of the ever died?

It is easy to theorize and hold to beliefs in a steril environemnt . . it is another to live with such a theory . .


Lotar, I do understand that people believe as you do . . I do believe that this stems from not having a well formed, properly formed image of God as Father . . . . . . most of us do not come into the Christian life with one or with a relationship with an earthly father that would provide one for us , or easily develope one . .


It doesn't really matter what Augustine said .. he was not infallible . . Neither Jesus nor the writers of the New Testament tell us what happens to unbaptized infants . .

The ban has nothing to do with this subject . . the ban, as I understand it, has eveything to do with the removal of eveything that could possibly stain the relationship of the Israelites with God by bringing in influences that could corrupt their relationship with God . .

This has nothing to do with the afterlife . . It had eveything to do with Israel's purity in relationship with God . .

This is a type of Christ removing sin from our lives . .


To make this "ban" somehow indicitive of what happens to babies who die . . well, no Lotar . there is no relationship . .


I believe that the belief that God would condemn babies to hell simply because they did not have the opportunity of receiving baptism reflects an image of a harsh, stern, cold, judgemental God that completely disregards the God of Mercy, the God of Love . .

Lotar, let me ask you . . do you really experience God the Father as "abba" as daddy? Like a little toddler who can climb up on God's lap and play with His beard and chatter away about nothing and God is there smiling at you, indulging you, taking pure delight in you?

Or is God your Father somewhat stern, aloof, a litrle distant . . someone whom you know without at doubt loves you, but who demands respect, and you find yourself standing off to the side slightly? Do you see yourself as an older child or adult having a more "reserved" "respectful" relationship?

Do you find it hard to imagine yourself like a toddler who can expect their Father to drop everything to completely to turn his attention to them, indulge them as if they are the only one who mattered, who even existed . . as though nothing esle exists besides the child and the father?



Peace in Him!

Very good post Theresa. And I agree, Augustine had opinions but he never disobeyed the magisteriuim. One can have a pious belief if they wish but they can not take this as a Church teaching. The Church does not speak on this issue, the Church leaves it to God’s mercy.

 

[Benedicta00]

So do you believe God was just to do so? Why?

Anything God does is just but I to do not see how this is about babies if they ar evil or not.

Oh God, hear me. Alas for the sins of humankind! A human it is who here bewails them, and you treat him mercifuly because you made him, though the sin in him is not of your making. Who is there to remind me of the sin of my infancy (for sin there was: no one is free from sin in your sight, not even an infant whose span of life is but a single day); who can remind me of it?
-Augustine

It's from The Confessions, the first half of the first book talks of not only original sin, but his sin as a baby. It's a good read.

Again I see him refering to original sin, all are born with it.

Augustine use to change his view quite often and as long as he does not speak against a clear teaching of the Church in which in those times he hadn’t and remained opened to correction which he always did, his opinions are just that, opinions. What makes you think that because he wrote it, it is somehow is infallible truth?

 

[Benedicta00]

Is it the Catholic belief that God was not merciful before Christ's resurection?

No. But when Calvin’s through out God is just to pass people by for salvation just look at how he killed this and that innocent one in the OT is comparing about apples to oranges. When Christ died for mankind there was a balance restored to the world again that was lost through sin. Christ did satisfy justice and God persevered the remnant who He would come to us through.

 

[Benedicta00]

Lotar,

I have to ask you where are you at right now because lately your theology has been all over the map than it was before with. You seem to be embracing hyper Lutheranism or something close to Calvinism. How come?

I am more than confused with all the different Lutheran Churches who all have different view about what Lutheranism is. Which Lutheran theology are you leaning towards here?

 

[Lotar]

Anything God does is just but I to do not see how this is about babies if they ar evil or not.

Well, if babies are sinners deserving of God's wrath, then this does not present a problem. But if they are good and worthy of salvation, it makes it a little harder.

Are you saying it was just merely because God commanded it, and there's nothing deeper to it?

Again I see him refering to original sin, all are born with it.

I was only quoting this to show that he considered them guilty of sin. It is really to long for me to quote it all, in context. Read for yourself if you do not believe me, I'm sure you'd love the book anyways, it is quite good.

Augustine use to change his view quite often and as long as he does not speak against a clear teaching of the Church in which in those times he hadn’t and remained opened to correction which he always did, his opinions are just that, opinions. What makes you think that because he wrote it, it is somehow is infallible truth?

Of course I don't take him as infallible truth. He is just a man who knew a whole lot more than I do. I believe he was correct in most of his beliefs, and I know he holds a lot of wieght in the Catholic church as well, so I saw it fit to quote him.

Augustine later in his life went through many of his old wrks and revised them, but of The Confessions he said needed no revision and that they stood the test of time.

 

[Lotar]

No. But when Calvin’s through out God is just to pass people by for salvation just look at how he killed this and that innocent one in the OT is comparing about apples to oranges. When Christ died for mankind there was a balance restored to the world again that was lost through sin. Christ did satisfy justice and God persevered the remnant who He would come to us through.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe God was just and merciful in the OT as well. We have a new covenant with Him, but God does not change.

What exactly do you believe in regarts to the Old Testament?

 

[Lotar]

Lotar,

I have to ask you where are you at right now because lately your theology has been all over the map than it was before with. You seem to be embracing hyper Lutheranism or something close to Calvinism. How come?

Hyper Lutheranism? That's a new one.

I'm not sure exactly what it is that you see as all over the map. My beliefs are different than they were a few months ago, they had been changing for some time. Starting last summer I've been examining all of my beliefs, throwing out the weak ones and adopting theologically sound ones in their place. I have read few books that changed my mind on some matters.

But no, I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in the predestination to hell, nor do I believe in eternal security.

I am more than confused with all the different Lutheran Churches who all have different view about what Lutheranism is. Which Lutheran theology are you leaning towards here?

Actually, there aren't that many The LCMS and WELS have the same beliefs, the ECLA deviate from classical Lutheranism, but even they are only slightly different on a minor point that most people never even discuss.

Those who are saved are saved by God's election alone and not by any works of their own, while those who are lost are lost because of their own sin and the hardness of their hearts. Lutherans do not equate regenerative grace and the grace of salvation, as the Calvinists do.

I am a member of the LCMS.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hyper Lutheranism? That's a new one.

I'm not sure exactly what it is that you see as all over the map. My beliefs are different than they were a few months ago, they had been changing for some time. Starting last summer I've been examining all of my beliefs, throwing out the weak ones and adopting theologically sound ones in their place. I have read few books that changed my mind on some matters.

But no, I am not a Calvinist. I do not believe in the predestination to hell, nor do I believe in eternal security.


Actually, there aren't that many The LCMS and WELS have the same beliefs, the ECLA deviate from classical Lutheranism, but even they are only slightly different on a minor point that most people never even discuss.

Those who are saved are saved by God's election alone and not by any works of their own, while those who are lost are lost because of their own sin and the hardness of their hearts. Lutherans do not equate regenerative grace and the grace of salvation, as the Calvinists do.

I am a member of the LCMS.

Okay, well thanks for clearing that up. I have heard the more radical Lutherans described a hyper Lutheranism.

I wish you the best on your journey.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe God was just and merciful in the OT as well. We have a new covenant with Him, but God does not change.

What exactly do you believe in regarts to the Old Testament?

Not a whole lot, that the OT was the prefigure of Christ’s coming and how God raised up a race of people to save us through. I see it as the struggle of the human nature and God’s handling of that. I see that in the OT the Jews did not realizing their problems lied in original sin. It wasn’t until Christ came and until he diagnosis it and cured it but the Jews rejected him and still believe they can earn grace.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, if babies are sinners deserving of God's wrath, then this does not present a problem. But if

The Catholic Church absolutely believes babies are not born sinless. Only Mary was. We believe they do have original sin on their soul but are incapable of voluntary sin. They are innocent but fallen babies who do need salvation. No, I do not think God is legal with them saying that the unbaptized go to hell. I believe he is merciful and makes a way of salvation for them because they have no personal sin on their soul.

Are you saying it was just merely because God commanded it, and there's nothing deeper to it?

I am saying that I really don't have an opinion one way or the other. I believe God when He says, Is it MY ways that are unjust? when he was questioned by Israel for his judgements.

I was only quoting this to show that he considered them guilty of sin. It is really to long for me to quote it all, in context. Read for yourself if you do not believe me, I'm sure you'd love the book anyways, it is quite good.

Original sin, you have not cited him saying that a baby baptized or not has committed evil.
I have read his collective works that contain many writing from Confessions and I have read a little about his Bio from confessions.

He is not the only Catholic theologian you may enjoy reading.

The deal with Augustine is that non-Catholics try to use him against the Church and it is silly to us because the Church is the one who tells us what is true and what isn’t. Not Augustine, the Church is the one to tell Augustine if he is true or not.

 

[Lotar]

The Catholic Church absolutely believes babies are not born sinless. Only Mary was. We believe they do have original sin on their soul but are incapable of voluntary sin. They are innocent but fallen babies who do need salvation. No, I do not think God is legal with them saying that the unbaptized go to hell. I believe he is merciful and makes a way of salvation for them because they have no personal sin on their soul.

Okay, is that your personal opinion or is it an official dogma?

I am saying that I really don't have an opinion one way or the other. I believe God when He says, Is it MY ways that are unjust? when he was questioned by Israel for his judgements.

Okay, then is there anyone else here who could answer my question from a Catholic perspective? This is really what I want to hear about.

Original sin, you have not cited him saying that a baby baptized or not has committed evil.
I have read his collective works that contain many writing from Confessions and I have read a little about his Bio from confessions.

Okay. I would recommend the book though. Perhaps you will see what I am talking about if you read it in context. There are two different sections, one where he talks about original sin and one where he talks about actual sin. And it is a Catholic translatioin I'm reading, if your wondering.

He is not the only Catholic theologian you may enjoy reading.

I'm sure he's not.

The deal with Augustine is that non-Catholics try to use him against the Church and it is silly to us because the Church is the one who tells us what is true and what isn’t. Not Augustine, the Church is the one to tell Augustine if he is true or not.

It isn't that we try to use him against you, it is that a lot of our theology originates from his work. He is one of the few theologans that we hold in common, so it is natural that we would use him in any debate. The only reason I quoted him was because people asked what my position was, not because I was trying to prove you wrong. And I thought it would be better to quote him instead of Luther

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay, is that your personal opinion or is it an official dogma?

The Church teaching is that babies are to be baptized because they do have original sin on theri soul and there is no salvtion outside Christ so with that said the Church urges us to baptize these babies but if a parents is not Catholic or fails to baptize for what ever reason and the baby should die there is no such dogma that says where they go.

The Church's position is Christ did not say, so the Church will not say. A person can believe a baby is saved because or they can even be free to believe they will go to hell like Augustine was so strong in arguing but what you can not do is pass your opinion off as truth and you must be open to correction if the Church ever does officially say what happens one way or the other to infants who have not been baptized. Now you may know why some said the babies are in limbo. It wasn't a place, it was a, we don't know where they are.

Okay, then is there anyone else here who could answer my question from a Catholic perspective? This is really what I want to hear about.

I hope so. Theresa gave a answer that seems sensible.

Okay. I would recommend the book though. Perhaps you will see what I am talking about if you read it in context. There are two different sections, one where he talks about original sin and one where he talks about actual sin. And it is a Catholic translatioin I'm reading, if your wondering.

I didn't think Confessions came in anything other than a Catholic translation but I will put the book on my list.

It isn't that we try to use him against you, it is that a lot of our theology originates from his work. He is one of the few theologans that we hold in common, so it is natural that we would use him in any debate. The only reason I quoted him was because people asked what my position was, not because I was trying to prove you wrong. And I thought it would be better to quote him instead of Luther

But the problem is it is all self interpreting picking and choosing what you want to build a whole theology around and that is wrong IMO. We should get our theology from Christ himself, not from the thoughts of Augustine (or anyone else).

Tradition is the apostolic faith and Augustine wrote about his insights but they are just one translation, one opinion, one theologian who doesn't contradict the Church but is susceptible to being wrong. If you really want the source of Christian doctrine you should go to the source which is the Church, not just one of it's theologians. Augustine is to be respected but still read in proper context. He wasn’t the one who came up with the Christian faith.