Question for ya

[thereselittleflower]

Therese,

I am truely sorry for your loss. I believe that the child of a believer can be saved without baptism. I do not know for certian, but this is one of the verses I was refering to:

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

I know that talking about this sort of thing is hard. I'm not trying to be cold hearted, I'm just trying to look at this objectively.
The ban is when God would command that a people be wiped out, men, women and children.

Hi Lotar

Wht relationship do you see the ban having in regards to the issue of where babies go when they die?


Peace in Him!

 

[Lotar]

Well, if you think babies are sinners worthy of God's judgement, then explaining the ban is not that hard. Since it seems that you do not, I was wondering how Catholics deal with it.

 

[Benedicta00]

In the words of Augustine:

God is good, he can save someone who have no good works but he is just he can not condemn someone who has not committed evil. Paraphrased.

We can believe babies go to heaven, I certainly do, but we can not pass this off as Church teaching the Church does not say one way or the other. The Church certainly condemns no one to hell let alone babies.

 

[Benedicta00]

Theresa,

Sorry about the lost of your son. What a grace God has given you to comfort you and let you know your son is with him. God is good.

 

[Lotar]

But Augustine also believed that infants commit sin.

Either way, I would like to hear a Catholic explaination on how a loving and just God can institute the ban.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, if you think babies are sinners worthy of God's judgement, then explaining the ban is not that hard. Since it seems that you do not, I was wondering how Catholics deal with it.

The best explanation I can offer is, we baptize them. Beyond that we can offer no other explanation since we do not pass judgement on their soul if they should die. We leave them to God's mercy.

 

[Benedicta00]

But Augustine also believed that infants commit sin.

Either way, I would like to hear a Catholic explaination on how a loving and just God can institute the ban.

Augustine believed they had original sin. No Catholic here disagrees that we ALL are born with original sin. Augustine used babies to make a point that no one can be saved with out Christ. That does not necessarily mean that the Church teaches that the unbaptized go to hell. We simply can not be their judge because Christ never spoke about it. We can believe they are all saved but we can not say this is what the Church teaches, that all are saved who are not baptized, we say Christ never spoke so we do not either. Believe that God is merciful and will grant them salvation through Christ. This is what we are free to believe.

Do you think that babies commit evil?

 

[Lotar]

Yes, I believe that they commit evil.

But the ban, that's the heart of my question

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes, I believe that they commit evil.

But the ban, that's the heart of my question

What evil do they commit? And what ban are you talking about, can you cite because I am clueless.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Yes, I believe that they commit evil.

This has to be the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard in my life. Can you please back this up with ONE example of a BABY committing evil?

 

[Benedicta00]

This has to be the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard in my life. Can you please back this up with ONE example of a BABY committing evil?

I heard an extremist say when they cry their prophesizing and telling lies.

 

[Lotar]

The only innocent feature in babies is the weakness of their frames; the minds of infants are far from innocent. I have watched and experienced for myself the jealousy of a small child: he could not even speak, yet he glared with livid fury at his fellow-nursling...Behavior of this kind is cheerfully condoned, however, not because it is trivial or of small account, but because everyone knows that it will fade away as the baby grows up. This is clear from the fact that those same actions are by no means calmly tolerated if detected in anyone of more mature years.
-St. Augustine


By the ban, I am talking about when God would command the complete destruction of a people, men, women and children. There are many acounts of it in the OT. King Saul had his kingdom taken from his family by God for not fully carying out this commandment, on one occasion.

 

[Benedicta00]

The only innocent feature in babies is the weakness of their frames; the minds of infants are far from innocent. I have watched and experienced for myself the jealousy of a small child: he could not even speak, yet he glared with livid fury at his fellow-nursling...Behavior of this kind is cheerfully condoned, however, not because it is trivial or of small account, but because everyone knows that it will fade away as the baby grows up. This is clear from the fact that those same actions are by no means calmly tolerated if detected in anyone of more mature years.
-St. Augustine

Ah Lotar, he is speaking about the effects of original sin, concupiscence and not actual sin. Do you think Augustine thought they were still evil after baptism?

By the ban, I am talking about when God would command the complete destruction of a people, men, women and children. There are many acounts of it in the OT. King Saul had his kingdom taken from his family by God for not fully carying out this commandment, on one occasion.

Christ had not yet died.

 

[Christy4Christ]

I choose not to participate in this thread anymore and I pray that Therese doesn't either.

Lotar,
I feel you are acting in a very insensitive manner by continuing this line of discussion. I feel it would be kind of you to take into consideration that one of our members has just shared that her baby died.

Somethings are much better left alone. In my opinion this is one of them. As a fellow Christian I implore everyone to consider this.

Thanks,
Christy

 

[Lotar]

Ah Lotar, he is speaking about the effects of original sin, concupiscence and not actual sin. Do you think Augustine thought they were still evil after baptism?

If you read the whole chapter, he speaks of actual sins. No, I do not believe he thought they were evil after baptism, nor do I.

Christ had not yet died.

So?

 

[Benedicta00]

If you read the whole chapter, he speaks of actual sins. No, I do not believe he thought they were evil after baptism, nor do I.



So?

So there was no mercy only justice and cite where Augustine says a baby is accountable for his "sins."

 

[Lotar]

So there was no mercy only justice and cite where Augustine says a baby is accountable for his "sins."

So do you believe God was just to do so? Why?

Oh God, hear me. Alas for the sins of humankind! A human it is who here bewails them, and you treat him mercifuly because you made him, though the sin in him is not of your making. Who is there to remind me of the sin of my infancy (for sin there was: no one is free from sin in your sight, not even an infant whose span of life is but a single day); who can remind me of it?
-Augustine

It's from The Confessions, the first half of the first book talks of not only original sin, but his sin as a baby. It's a good read.

 

[Lotar]

Is it the Catholic belief that God was not merciful before Christ's resurection?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Lotar

May I ask something personal . . do you have children? And have any of the ever died?

It is easy to theorize and hold to beliefs in a steril environemnt . . it is another to live with such a theory . .


Lotar, I do understand that people believe as you do . . I do believe that this stems from not having a well formed, properly formed image of God as Father . . . . . . most of us do not come into the Christian life with one or with a relationship with an earthly father that would provide one for us , or easily develope one . .


It doesn't really matter what Augustine said .. he was not infallible . . Neither Jesus nor the writers of the New Testament tell us what happens to unbaptized infants . .

The ban has nothing to do with this subject . . the ban, as I understand it, has eveything to do with the removal of eveything that could possibly stain the relationship of the Israelites with God by bringing in influences that could corrupt their relationship with God . .

This has nothing to do with the afterlife . . It had eveything to do with Israel's purity in relationship with God . .

This is a type of Christ removing sin from our lives . .


To make this "ban" somehow indicitive of what happens to babies who die . . well, no Lotar . there is no relationship . .


I believe that the belief that God would condemn babies to hell simply because they did not have the opportunity of receiving baptism reflects an image of a harsh, stern, cold, judgemental God that completely disregards the God of Mercy, the God of Love . .

Lotar, let me ask you . . do you really experience God the Father as "abba" as daddy? Like a little toddler who can climb up on God's lap and play with His beard and chatter away about nothing and God is there smiling at you, indulging you, taking pure delight in you?

Or is God your Father somewhat stern, aloof, a litrle distant . . someone whom you know without at doubt loves you, but who demands respect, and you find yourself standing off to the side slightly? Do you see yourself as an older child or adult having a more "reserved" "respectful" relationship?

Do you find it hard to imagine yourself like a toddler who can expect their Father to drop everything to completely to turn his attention to them, indulge them as if they are the only one who mattered, who even existed . . as though nothing esle exists besides the child and the father?



Peace in Him!

 

[Lotar]

Therese,
Could you make room for a PM please?