Question for ya

[Christy4Christ]

Babies and children under a certain age cannot really be sinning because they do not have the comprehension skills to understand the law. Paul speaks clearly about the law and the knowledge of it.


Romans 7:7-9
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;

Then Jesus said this of the children

Luke 18:15-16
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God


I think it is also up to us to use our common sense when wondering about the purity of infants. Have you ever in your life seen an evil baby? Have you ever seen a baby kill someone? Babies are pure creatures, in my eyes there is no one more holy and pure than a tiny baby or small child. This to me is humanity in it's only flawless and beautiful state.

 

[Benedicta00]

What I don't think it is being understood that innocent of any evil and holiness are not the same. The babies who are baptized are holy because they have been sanctified by Christ- not because they have done no evil and are not capable at this point of it. You can not earn salvation. The babies who are not baptized are innocent of any evil but they are not sanctified. You really con not say they are holy and pure in a spiritual sense, they do have original sin on their soul.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

One of the other things that I saw no mention of was the ability for children to actively commit sin. One of the keys in culpability is knowledge of wrong doing, and freely choosing it. Can a very young child be free to choose wrong and have full knowledge that what they are choosing is wrong?

In Him
Shannon

 

[Christy4Christ]

I actually was talking about baptized infants because of something someone said in an earlier post , I should have been more clear.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

No interpertation just a quote

Can. 97 §1 A person who has completed the eighteenth year of age, has attained majority; below this age, a person is a minor.


§2 A minor who has not completed the seventh year of age is called an infant and is considered incapable of personal responsibility; on completion of the seventh year, however, the minor is presumed to have the use of reason.

Can. 99 Whoever habitually lacks the use of reason is considered as incapable of personal responsibility and is regarded as an infant.

 

[Michelina]

no act of the will = no sin

 

[Miss Shelby]

Can. 99 Whoever habitually lacks the use of reason is considered as incapable of personal responsibility and is regarded as an infant.

Sweet! I knew I'd find an 'out' eventually!

Michelle

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Sweet! I knew I'd find an 'out' eventually!

LOL!!!! Me, too!!

 

[thereselittleflower]

I believe it happened. Children and infants are just as guilty of sin as adults are. As they are God's creation, if it is His while that they should be killed, He is not less righteous. What does the potter owe the clay?

I don't know if I stated it very well, it's waaaaaay past my bed time Basically I'm saying that we are all guilty of sin, if not our own, then we are still guilty of original sin. So if we are guilty of sin, and we have refused God's grace and forgiveness, then He is righteous in any judgement against us He sees fit, whether we are 90 years old or 9 months old.

I don't know how well that meshes with the Catholic view. Sorry if I come of as cold hearted, I really do love children dearly.

So Lotar

Are you saying my baby is in hell?


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Maybe God knew that those children would grow up into evil people and actually ended up saving them from eternal Hell by having them killed before the age of reason?

Careful brother, careful!! That is a slippery slope . . for if God would judge a baby or a child on what they "would' have done if they had lived longer, God could judge you too on what you "would" have done if YOU lived longer . .

No, God hold's us accountable for our own sins . .

We speak of invicible ignorance . . who is more invicibly ignorant than an infant?


Peace in Him!

 

[PeterPaul]

What is that? "Minority Report"?

 

[thereselittleflower]

No interpertation just a quote

Hi Aaron-Aggie

I wonder how these cannons square with minors being able to marry at younger ages than 17 or 18 . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Christy4Christ]

Therese,

I have just tried to send you a PM but your box is full.

I am so sorry to hear that you lost your baby

I would like to say that I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that your baby is with Mary and Jesus right now in Heaven awaiting you.

I cannot believe the ignorance I hear sometimes about Heaven and who will go or won't go.

God Bless you and keep you in His peace .

With Love,
Christy

 

[thereselittleflower]

Therese,

I have just tried to send you a PM but your box is full.

I am so sorry to hear that you lost your baby

I would like to say that I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that your baby is with Mary and Jesus right now in Heaven awaiting you.

I cannot believe the ignorance I hear sometimes about Heaven and who will go or won't go.

God Bless you and keep you in His peace .

With Love,
Christy

hi Christy . .



Thank you . . I know he is too!

I posted this becaues I wanted Lotar and others who are speaking of those infants, who haved died, in such harsh ways, to put a "face" on one - make it very real for them . . and see if they could really in good conscience tell me MY baby was in hell . . It gets much harder to hold to such a position when you have to tell someone to their face that THEIR baby is in hell . . .


It has been 16 years, but I would like to share this . .

At the time, I was unaware of the need for baptism, I was very, very much into Protestantism which taught that baptism was not necessary, it was only a mere symbol, and he died before I could learn differently . .


My faith sustained me through this, and even so, it was terribly hard at moments . .

When Jonathan died, at 3 months of age, it was foggy, densely foggy, he died of SIDS at a relatives house when we had gathered for a bridal shower . .

For the next week, the fog never lifted . .. twice, very late at night, I heard clearly the laugh of a baby, this laugh was so delightful, so clear, so beautiful, so happy that it struck me that I had never heard a baby laugh like that, and I wondered at first who would have a baby out in this miserable fog so very late at night (close to midnight) and it seemed to me the baby was playing . .and I thought, who would have their baby out playing in this fog at this time of night? . . And then the thought that I was hearing Jonathan dared enter my mind . .and great peace surrounded me . . my pain would disappear and I would fall asleep content and peaceful . .


Several months later, I was driving through the country to where my husband worked . . and the anger at what had happened begand to come out, and I was crying, and almost yelling at God "WHY??!!!" "Why did you take my baby away?!!" I told God that I knew Jonathan was with Him, and that someday I would see him again, but my hearts greatest desire was to have been able to reaise him, see him grow up, see his life unfold and all that would go with it . . And I told God that even when I would see him again, still, this had been taken from me and could never be recovered . . . I was sobbing my heart out, and yelling at God . .

Then God's presence came into the car, and He spoke to my heart, and He told me that whatever I could imagine, whatever was the very best I could imagaine or have desired, that in heaven, (and I understood this to be very sepcifically in relationship to my desires regarding Jonathan) it was going to be 100 times better, 1000 times better than anything I could imagine here, imagine now . .

He left me with that promise, and from that moment, that promise sustained me, and my anger left, and my trust regarding Jonathan has been fully on God . .


I don't know that you will ever hear someone who has lost a baby say that babies go to hell . .



I don't know what the "ban" in the Old Testament is referring to either . . so I can't comment on it unless someone references it . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Hi Aaron-Aggie

I wonder how these cannons square with minors being able to marry at younger ages than 17 or 18 . . .


Peace in Him!

Thats covered here

Can. 1083 §1 A man cannot validly enter marriage before the completion of his
sixteenth year of age, nor a woman before the completion of her fourteenth year.

§2 The Episcopal Conference may establish a higher age for the lawful celebration of marriage.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Therese~

You have heard from God there is no need for you to hear from another living soul where your baby is.

 

[PeterPaul]

That is moving. God bless you!!!

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

hi Christy . .



Thank you . . I know he is too!

I posted this becaues I wanted Lotar and others who are speaking of those infants, who haved died, in such harsh ways, to put a "face" on one - make it very real for them . . and see if they could really in good conscience tell me MY baby was in hell . . It gets much harder to hold to such a position when you have to tell someone to their face that THEIR baby is in hell . . .


It has been 16 years, but I would like to share this . .

At the time, I was unaware of the need for baptism, I was very, very much into Protestantism which taught that baptism was not necessary, it was only a mere symbol, and he died before I could learn differently . .


My faith sustained me through this, and even so, it was terribly hard at moments . .

When Jonathan died, at 3 months of age, it was foggy, densely foggy, he died of SIDS at a relatives house when we had gathered for a bridal shower . .

For the next week, the fog never lifted . .. twice, very late at night, I heard clearly the laugh of a baby, this laugh was so delightful, so clear, so beautiful, so happy that it struck me that I had never heard a baby laugh like that, and I wondered at first who would have a baby out in this miserable fog so very late at night (close to midnight) and it seemed to me the baby was playing . .and I thought, who would have their baby out playing in this fog at this time of night? . . And then the thought that I was hearing Jonathan dared enter my mind . .and great peace surrounded me . . my pain would disappear and I would fall asleep content and peaceful . .


Several months later, I was driving through the country to where my husband worked . . and the anger at what had happened begand to come out, and I was crying, and almost yelling at God "WHY??!!!" "Why did you take my baby away?!!" I told God that I knew Jonathan was with Him, and that someday I would see him again, but my hearts greatest desire was to have been able to reaise him, see him grow up, see his life unfold and all that would go with it . . And I told God that even when I would see him again, still, this had been taken from me and could never be recovered . . . I was sobbing my heart out, and yelling at God . .

Then God's presence came into the car, and He spoke to my heart, and He told me that whatever I could imagine, whatever was the very best I could imagaine or have desired, that in heaven, (and I understood this to be very sepcifically in relationship to my desires regarding Jonathan) it was going to be 100 times better, 1000 times better than anything I could imagine here, imagine now . .

He left me with that promise, and from that moment, that promise sustained me, and my anger left, and my trust regarding Jonathan has been fully on God . .


I don't know that you will ever hear someone who has lost a baby say that babies go to hell . .



I don't know what the "ban" in the Old Testament is referring to either . . so I can't comment on it unless someone references it . .


Peace in Him!

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Therese-
Thank you for sharing so much of yourself! What heartache and what peace. God Bless you!

 

[Lotar]

Therese,

I am truely sorry for your loss. I believe that the child of a believer can be saved without baptism. I do not know for certian, but this is one of the verses I was refering to:

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

I know that talking about this sort of thing is hard. I'm not trying to be cold hearted, I'm just trying to look at this objectively.
The ban is when God would command that a people be wiped out, men, women and children.