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Lotar

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What up, yo!

Okay, that's what I always thought, but a few threads around here had me questioning whether my assumption was correct.

Personally I don't see how those who believe in the age of accountability can justify it, which is why I was asking. Still wouldn't mind hearing your reasoning behind why you believe God can institute the ban, while remaining a loving and just God.
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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Lotar said:
What up, yo!

Okay, that's what I always thought, but a few threads around here had me questioning whether my assumption was correct.

Personally I don't see how those who believe in the age of accountability can justify it, which is why I was asking. Still wouldn't mind hearing your reasoning behind why you believe God can institute the ban, while remaining a loving and just God.

Hmmmm, I'm not sure God instituted it...Jesus said that the Jewish leaders had added their own human doctrines to the laws of God. Perhaps the ban was one of them? Not sure.
 
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Lotar

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I believe it happened. Children and infants are just as guilty of sin as adults are. As they are God's creation, if it is His while that they should be killed, He is not less righteous. What does the potter owe the clay?

I don't know if I stated it very well, it's waaaaaay past my bed time :D Basically I'm saying that we are all guilty of sin, if not our own, then we are still guilty of original sin. So if we are guilty of sin, and we have refused God's grace and forgiveness, then He is righteous in any judgement against us He sees fit, whether we are 90 years old or 9 months old.

I don't know how well that meshes with the Catholic view. Sorry if I come of as cold hearted, I really do love children dearly.
 
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Lotar

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Not if it is the inspired word of God. Now I know that it is acceptable in the Catholic Church to believe that the bible is not always historically and scientifically correct, but it is still the view that scripture is 100% infallible when it comes to matters of faith. So I guess it would be possible for you to believe that it did not really happen, but you would still be under the obligation to believe that He would be right to do so.

It is hard for us to believe because God created in us the strong desire to love and cherish our children, and it is right that we do so. But when we look at matters like this we must seperate our emotions and look at them objectively.

A child baptized and brought up in the faith will be holy for the sake of their parents, we know that much to be true, but the bible also teaches that otherwise they would be be sinful before God.
 
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Photini

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Children and infants are just as guilty of sin as adults are. As they are God's creation, if it is His while that they should be killed, He is not less righteous.

Defens0rFidei said:
Maybe God knew that those children would grow up into evil people and actually ended up saving them from eternal Hell by having them killed before the age of reason?
Agreed Defens-
Physical death in infants or adults could be an act of mercy.
 
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Benedicta00

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Lotar said:
I have heard a few times now that you believe that infants are holy. Am I correct in this?

If so, how then do you deal with "the ban" in the OT?

We believe infants who are baptized are sanctified and holy. We believe babies who are not baptized are not sanctified but they are innocent of any committed evil. There is a difference in the two.
 
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Benedicta00

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Defens0rFidei said:
Maybe God knew that those children would grow up into evil people and actually ended up saving them from eternal Hell by having them killed before the age of reason?

Having them killed? That sounds kind of Calvinish to me.

We do not know that mind of God, we simply can not say why God permits ordains what he does. We can not try to tidy Him up like the Calvinist do with explanations to His mysteries.
 
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Benedicta00

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Lotar said:
I believe it happened. Children and infants are just as guilty of sin as adults are. As they are God's creation, if it is His while that they should be killed, He is not less righteous. What does the potter owe the clay?

I don't know if I stated it very well, it's waaaaaay past my bed time :D Basically I'm saying that we are all guilty of sin, if not our own, then we are still guilty of original sin. So if we are guilty of sin, and we have refused God's grace and forgiveness, then He is righteous in any judgement against us He sees fit, whether we are 90 years old or 9 months old.

I don't know how well that meshes with the Catholic view. Sorry if I come of as cold hearted, I really do love children dearly.



How does a nine month old refuse grace? What believe is that God can make a way of salvation possible for them but Christ never spoke about it so all any Christian here can do is speculate about it. None of us can say definitely what happens to the unbaptized.
 
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Benedicta00

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Lotar said:
A child baptized and brought up in the faith will be holy for the sake of their parents, we know that much to be true, but the bible also teaches that otherwise they would be be sinful before God.

Huh? A baptized child is holy because grace is conferred on him at baptism, grace is free. It isn't for his parents sake he is holy. You can't earn salvation. If they grow up in the faith and reject it, it is because they have free will.
 
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Roald

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Photini said:
Agreed Defens-
Physical death in infants or adults could be an act of mercy.
I remember reading in an Orthodox theology book that the death that came into the world on account of Adam was, in some ways, an act of mercy. Man in his sinful state, were he to live forever, would doubtless be a montrous thing.
 
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Photini

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St Gregory of Nyssa said:
. We may speak, then, in this way also as regards this question of the infants: we may say that the enjoyment of that future life does indeed belong of right to the human being, but that, seeing the plague of ignorance has seized almost all now living in the flesh, he who has purged himself of it by means of the necessary courses of treatment receives the due reward of his diligence, when he enters on the life that is truly natural; while he who refuses Virtue's purgatives and renders that plague of ignorance, through the pleasures he has been entrapped by, difficult in his case to cure, gets himself into an unnatural state, and so is estranged from the truly natural life, and has no share in the existence which of right belongs to us and is congenial to us. Whereas the innocent babe has no such plague before its soul's eyes obscuring23 its measure of light, and so it continues to exist in that natural life; it does not need the soundness which comes from purgation, because it never admitted the plague into its soul at all. Further, the present life appears to me to offer a sort of analogy to the future life we hope for, and to be intimately connected with it, thus; the tenderest infancy is suckled and reared with milk from the breast; then another sort of food appropriate to the subject of this fostering, and intimately adapted to his needs, succeeds, until at last he arrives at full growth. And so I think, in quantities continually adapted to it, in a sort of regular progress, the soul partakes of that truly natural life; according to its capacity and its power it receives a measure of the delights of the Blessed state; indeed we learn as much from Paul, who had a different sort of food for him who was already grown in virtue and for the imperfect "babe." For to the last he says, "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it24 ." But to those who have grown to the full measure of intellectual maturity he says, "But strong meat belongeth to those that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised...25 " Now it is not right to say that the man and the infant are in a similar state however free both may be from any contact of disease (for how can those who do not partake of exactly the same things be in an equal state of enjoyment?); on the contrary, though the absence of any affliction from disease may be predicated of both alike as long as both are out of the reach of its influence, yet, when we come to the matter of delights, there is no likeness in the enjoyment, though the percipients are in the same condition. For the man there is a natural delight in discussions, and in the management of affairs, and in the honourable discharge of the duties of an office, and in being distinguished for acts of help to the needy; in living, it may be, with a wife whom he loves, and ruling his household; and in all those amusements to be found in this life in the way of pastime, in musical pieces and theatrical spectacles, in the chase, in bathing, in gymnastics, in the mirth of banquets, and anything else of that sort. For the infant, on the contrary, there is a natural delight in its milk, and in its nurse's arms, and in gentle rocking that induces and then sweetens its slumber. Any happiness beyond this the tenderness of its years naturally prevents it from feeling. In the same manner those who in their life here have nourished the forces of their souls by a course of virtue, and have, to use the Apostle's words, had the "senses" of their minds "exercised," will, if they are translated to that life beyond, which is out of the body, proportionately to the condition and the powers they have attained participate in that divine delight; they will have more or they will have less of its riches according to the capacity acquired. But the soul that has never felt the taste of virtue, while it may indeed remain perfectly free from the sufferings which flow from wickedness having never caught the disease of evil at all, does nevertheless in the first instance26 partake only so far in that life beyond (which consists, according to our previous definition, in the knowing and being in God) as this nursling can receive; until the time comes that it has thriven on the contemplation of the truly Existent as on a congenial diet, and, becoming capable of receiving more, takes at will more from that abundant supply of the truly Existent which is offered.
This is an interesting letter, if you have time to read it.

Concerning Infants Snatched Away Prematurely by Saint Gregory of Nyssa
 
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Photini

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Roald said:
I remember reading in an Orthodox theology book that the death that came into the world on account of Adam was, in some ways, an act of mercy. Man in his sinful state, were he to live forever, would doubtless be a montrous thing.
Many of the Saints tell us to keep the thought of death before us continually, because it awakens contrition and repentance.

"Poor sinners! Why do we sleep? Behold, as a thief the devil steals our salvation. Let us inscribe that hour (of our death) in our memory and let us be prepared. From that hour on, a man will be either eternally blessed or eternally unhappy. Here the door to eternity is opened to each man, and he will go into either a happy or an unhappy eternity. From that point on a man begins to either live eternally or die eternally." ~St Tikhon of Zadonsk, Journey to Heaven
 
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