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Question for Theistic Evolutionists

grasping the after wind

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Now you are sounding even more like a jack ass. Keep it up.

God Bless you and keep you , God let his countenance shine upon you and give you peace. Theistic atheists would not so bless you no matter how inebriated they were. You can curse me and call me names as you will I will not reciprocate in kind.
 
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Marc15

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Then all evolution is microevolution. And if you agree that microevolution occurs, I don't see what the disagreement is.

By Evolution I reffered to Macroevolution. Microevolution doesn't contradict the bible. I can see how it makes sense. I however do not see how a dinosaur turns into a bird, and how repitles grow fur and turn into mammals.
 
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Willtor

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By Evolution I reffered to Macroevolution. Microevolution doesn't contradict the bible. I can see how it makes sense. I however do not see how a dinosaur turns into a bird, and how repitles grow fur and turn into mammals.

A dinosaur doesn't directly turn into a bird. Through gradual changes, a species of dinosaur became what we call birds, today. In the same way that speciation of mosquitoes produces only mosquitoes (no matter how many changes build up and how different they look than their ancestors), so too birds are simply extant dinosaurs.

Of course, it is convenient to come up with new names and classifications after they have accrued that many changes. But it's, as you say, all microevolution.
 
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Marc15

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A dinosaur doesn't directly turn into a bird. Through gradual changes, a species of dinosaur became what we call birds, today. In the same way that speciation of mosquitoes produces only mosquitoes (no matter how many changes build up and how different they look than their ancestors), so too birds are simply extant dinosaurs.

Of course, it is convenient to come up with new names and classifications after they have accrued that many changes. But it's, as you say, all microevolution.

No Dinosaurs did not become birds. That is just ridiculously illogical. Is there any huge fossil chain that shows this? Dinosaurs are reptiles and birds are completely different.
 
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Willtor

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No Dinosaurs did not become birds. That is just ridiculously illogical. Is there any huge fossil chain that shows this? Dinosaurs are reptiles and birds are completely different.

They are strikingly similar. If the Jurassic Park movie had been made a few years later, some of the smaller dinosaurs would have been given feathers. And as you ask, regarding fossils, there is much data regarding the order in which changes took place.

But from my angle, that is neither here nor there. If all the data turned out to be fabricated and evolution were the biggest hoax ever pulled on science, it wouldn't change my interpretation of Genesis.

So what do you make of the Tree of Life? Is it a literal tree that managed to survive the flood, and another path to immortality apart from Christ?
 
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Assyrian

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It is intended Historically. There is nothing to indicate it's an allegory.
Why do you think the bible has to tell you if it uses allegory? What makes you think it is intended historically? It doesn't say that either. You realise Jesus spoke in parables, isn't he the one who inspired the writers of Genesis? We are told Jesus often spoke in parables, but if you read the accounts of the parables, Jesus often told them without saying he was telling a parable. He expected his disciples to work it out for themselves.

At the same time there are plenty of indications it is speaking in a parable, as Willtor has pointed out, a literal Tree of Life does not make sense for Christians who believe everlasting life is only to be found in Christ, however it is a beautiful metaphor for the cross, or Christ the true vine. Then we have two contradictory timetables for creation in Genesis 1&2, which is a pretty strong indication the writers or editor did not intend them as literal history. Of course as we have seen Adam means Man or Mankind, another indicator we are looking at a parable or allegory. Adam is not only referred to as 'him' a single individual, but 'them', which is what you would expect from allegory. Then we have the promise of a Redeemer who was is going to bruise the snake's head. Yet the gospel accounts of the crucifixion Jesus never mention stepping on a 6000 year old snake. The promise was fulfilled, but only if you understand it as a metaphor for Jesus defeat of Satan.

Then we have figurative interpretations of Genesis in the NT, Paul interpreting Adam as a figure of Christ Rom 5:14, or interpreting one flesh in Gen 2:24 as a ' profound mystery' speaking of Christ and the church Eph 5:32. Of course you can have allegorical interpretation of historical passages too Gal 4:24, but it certainly tells us the figurative meanings of Genesis are important.
 
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Greg1234

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Then all evolution is microevolution. And if you agree that microevolution occurs, I don't see what the disagreement is.

No it Isnt. A man creates a fan with he ability to adapt. The adaptation principle is a component of that creation and is evidence for creationism. What we observe are limits, degradation and embedded coding to facilitate designed alterations. You elect to use the old "fan doesn't reproduce" line then all you have to do is allow bacteria to reproduce and you will see the same principles encountered in the fan, are encounteref in bacteria. Hence, to say that the changes observed in the fan are indicative of long term changes to a race car is only the profession of materialistic doctrine.
 
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Willtor

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No it Isnt. A man creates a fan with he ability to adapt. The adaptation principle is a component of that creation and is evidence for creationism. What we observe are limits, degradation and embedded coding to facilitate designed alterations. You elect to use the old "fan doesn't reproduce" line then all you have to do is allow bacteria to reproduce and you will see the same principles encountered in the fan, are encounteref in bacteria. Hence, to say that the changes observed in the fan are indicative of long term changes to a race car is only the profession of materialistic doctrine.

An essential part of evolution is reproduction. Could you elaborate?
 
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gluadys

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"Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but at last was complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Charles Darwin

This refers to his disbelief in Christianity. Other journal entries and letters indicate that although he ceased to think of himself as a Christian, he did not ever think of himself as an atheist.

Christians are not the only people who believe in God and creation.

He also insisted always, that his theory of natural selection was not hostile to theistic belief.

We might point out as well that Darwin's principle problem with Christian belief was not creation; it was the doctrine of hell. That more than anything drove him away from Christianity.
 
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Marc15

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Why do you think the bible has to tell you if it uses allegory? What makes you think it is intended historically? It doesn't say that either. You realise Jesus spoke in parables, isn't he the one who inspired the writers of Genesis? We are told Jesus often spoke in parables, but if you read the accounts of the parables, Jesus often told them without saying he was telling a parable. He expected his disciples to work it out for themselves.

At the same time there are plenty of indications it is speaking in a parable, as Willtor has pointed out, a literal Tree of Life does not make sense for Christians who believe everlasting life is only to be found in Christ, however it is a beautiful metaphor for the cross, or Christ the true vine. Then we have two contradictory timetables for creation in Genesis 1&2, which is a pretty strong indication the writers or editor did not intend them as literal history. Of course as we have seen Adam means Man or Mankind, another indicator we are looking at a parable or allegory. Adam is not only referred to as 'him' a single individual, but 'them', which is what you would expect from allegory. Then we have the promise of a Redeemer who was is going to bruise the snake's head. Yet the gospel accounts of the crucifixion Jesus never mention stepping on a 6000 year old snake. The promise was fulfilled, but only if you understand it as a metaphor for Jesus defeat of Satan.

Then we have figurative interpretations of Genesis in the NT, Paul interpreting Adam as a figure of Christ Rom 5:14, or interpreting one flesh in Gen 2:24 as a ' profound mystery' speaking of Christ and the church Eph 5:32. Of course you can have allegorical interpretation of historical passages too Gal 4:24, but it certainly tells us the figurative meanings of Genesis are important.

Another problem with TE, it that can't explain the fall can it?
 
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Marc15

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Sure it can. Why would there be a problem explaining the fall? All you need is a person who disobeys God's will. Could even be a person named Adam.

Yeah, but in evolution there was death before the fall. Adam caused death for everyone. How could evolution happen if there was no death?
 
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shernren

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Yeah, but in evolution there was death before the fall. Adam caused death for everyone. How could evolution happen if there was no death?
Adam caused death for every living thing, or for all people?
 
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Assyrian

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Another problem with TE, it that can't explain the fall can it?

Where does it say that animals already died. The Bible that death spread to all men. "and in this way death came to all men". Romans 5:12 But there is nothing that says about Animals. That doesn't mean they could already die.
So basically, your problem with TE is it cannot explain a doctrine that isn't supported by scripture anyway? It is not enough to try to shift the burden of proof, if your doctrine not backed up by scripture it is simply a non issue.
 
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gluadys

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Where does it say that animals already died. The Bible that death spread to all men. "and in this way death came to all men". Romans 5:12 But there is nothing that says about Animals. That doesn't mean they could already die.


Doesn't mean they couldn't either.

What do you think of the argument in this article?

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2006/PSCF6-06Phillips.pdf


I find it impossible to get around the plain evidence that plants and animals died well before humans existed. I don't think God intends for us to interpret scripture in a way that blatantly contradicts what are obviously natural facts that are part of the natural history of his creation.
 
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