Question for the YECs

rcorlew

Serving His Flock
Aug 21, 2008
1,102
77
49
Missouri, the show me state!
✟16,657.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I guess I don't see the connection between the geneologies going back 6,000 years and this concluding that other civilizations drew from the Hebrew account. For starters, there are civilizations that predate 6,000 years ago. So if this account is acruate, that means that the ancient Sumerians and Mesopotamians were there to witness creation.

Also, the actual Hebrew creation tradition doesn't date back to the beginning of the world. Even under the assumption of a Mosaic authorship, that puts it in writing between 1200 and 2000 BC, and it would have to be oral tradition before this, during a time when other civilizations were writing their creation accounts down.

The ancient Israelites were also relative unknowns in the ancient world, and their cultural influence would have been minimal. Its less likely that nations like Assyria, Egypt, and Mesopotamia would be influenced by the culture of slaves than the other way around. The Old Testament itself is a great example of how easily the Hebrews took on other cultures, most notable the Baal stories Kings, and many of the psalms that draw from storm god and el imagery to describe Yahweh (also see Psalm 77 which uses the plot to Marduk's defeat over Tiamat to describe Yahweh's parting of the Red Sea).

Using other ANE cultures to understand the Hebrew perspective is perfectly valid and has provided a number of answers to confusing questions throughout the Old Testament.

I do not necessarily see your logic, if the Pentateuch were written 1200 BC, that does not mean that is when the stories were incorporated into the Hebrew traditions. One thing that bothers me about some of the assumptions that are being made, after living in Egypt for 500 years and admittedly worshiping their gods, why do we not see a parallel between Hebrew/Egyptian mythologies, indeed these two mythologies as they are called are strikingly dissimilar, but why is that?

And what understandings have been gleaned from ANE cultures to help us to understand the OT?
 
Upvote 0

Siyha

Puppy Surprise
Mar 13, 2009
354
24
✟15,638.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I do not necessarily see your logic, if the Pentateuch were written 1200 BC, that does not mean that is when the stories were incorporated into the Hebrew traditions.
Thats the same with any ancient civilization. Oral tradition comes long before it is written. The task is to try to look at the little information we have and gather timelines and create highly speculated guesses as to when certain beliefs existed under what political powers. This is a problem for both Hebrew and non-Biblical religious views alike. Anything one side can say, the other can say right back.


One thing that bothers me about some of the assumptions that are being made, after living in Egypt for 500 years and admittedly worshiping their gods, why do we not see a parallel between Hebrew/Egyptian mythologies, indeed these two mythologies as they are called are strikingly dissimilar, but why is that?
Because the similarities are from the civilizations that surrounded the Israelites during the authorship of the Pentateuch (Canaanite, Assyrian and friends). Any egyptian influence would have faded for the more influencial and present cultures.


And what understandings have been gleaned from ANE cultures to help us to understand the OT?

Let's start outside Genesis.

The typical ancient near eastern myth had the high god (we’ll use Babylonian mythology for this example) Marduk, and the god of death Mot, in a constant war and struggle. The high god would often lose to mot in battle, which is when winter came, and come back to life to fight again in the spring.

One of Mot’s (or any god of death’s) primary attributes was the image of him “swallowing” people down into his pit. The notion of death swallowing somebody is very common in the Old Testament. Just search the term swallow in the NASB on Biblegateway.org and you will see many examples of how death and descent into hell is put into words of being “swallowed up”. This is also the way that the death god usually kills the high god.

Now pay particular attention to the imagery in Isaiah 25:7-8a. “On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever.” In this prophesy, we see Yahweh doing what no other god in the ancient near east could…. Defeating death permanently. Marduk and Ba’al always succumbed to death and would rise again, temporarily defeating death only be killed again and again and again. But Yahweh swallows up death itself FOREVER!

This connection is nothing new, and has been used in commentaries on the passage for years, by both creationists and noncreationists alike. Why can’t we look at Genesis 1 in the same way?


We can also understand the context of Elijah and Elisha's narratives in Kings much better with the unearthing of the library under Ugarit, because of the wealth of Baal worship documents there, most notably the Baal Epic (a story of Baal's rise to power in the pantheon) and a variety of ritual texts pertaining to Baal.
I can provide full detail on this if you would like, but in short, we see the Elijah/Elisha narratives a push not just against Baalism, but against the entire Ancient Near Eastern pantheon. THere is no polytheism. There is only Yahweh who completely transcends the ANE stereotype god.
Of most significance in the narratives is the theophanies on Mt. Horeb in 1 Kings 19, where the fire, wind, and quake pass by, but Yahweh ends up being in none of those, but in the still small voice after. THanks to ANE scholarship, we know that fire, wind, and quake are classic storm god theophanies. In the context of the passage and looking at the culture of the area closer, we can see that Yahweh is declaring his transcendance outside the storm god profile, and outside mere functionality in the real world as all other gods were defined.

We no longer need to force a view of either a crocodile or a dinosaur onto the Leviathan creature found in Job, or Rahab found in Psalms and Job, and we see the actual power of Yahweh being displayed is on a whole new level. They are modeled after ANE sea monsters that, at the time, pretty much the entire biblical world thought existed and feared greatly. The sea was associated with chaos and the sea god and his minion and monsters were evil and usually the main enemy of the high god's rise to power (some have the high storm god fight just the sea, like babylon, while others like canaanite religion have the high god fight both the sea and death before he establishes his rulership). Leviathan matches the classic descriptions of the sea monster, and we see that the claim of the book of Job is that Yahweh has the power to control the most epic and dangerous creature in mythical lore! Thats right. The most dangerous creature ever imagine by mankind (although they thought he was real) was nothing compared to Yahweh. And while Rahab him/herself doesn't get much description, we see the ways Yahweh deals with him/her to be similar to the ways the high god defeats the sea god.

Do you want some more? Or more detail on any of those? I rambled in my mind and didn't proof read any so its very possible that in the middle there I got completely incomprehensible.

These things we learn are not new doctrine or powerful waves of theology that mankind cannot be saved without. Rather they are helpful to rekindle some of the emphasis in the narratives lost over the years. The post-enlightenment era gave a new wave of criticisms that attacked the validity of the Bible. I don't think it is coincidence that we uncovered these ancient documents when we did, because they go to great lengths to address the issues and problems that secular scholars lobby against the texts.

I don't mean to say that all Christians must learn about ANE culture and religion before they can understand the Bible. As somebody who has taken Greek and currently taking Hebrew, I would want make a parallel in benefits between learning the original language and learning the original cultures. Neither are needed in getting the overarching themes and messages, and you won't end up a heretic for not having them; however, those they work to clear up those little confusions, to answer nagging questions, and help avoid the bias of our own language and culture (although no approach is without bias, the goal is to keep it to a minimum or at least be self aware of your bias)
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟27,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I do not necessarily see your logic, if the Pentateuch were written 1200 BC, that does not mean that is when the stories were incorporated into the Hebrew traditions. One thing that bothers me about some of the assumptions that are being made, after living in Egypt for 500 years and admittedly worshiping their gods, why do we not see a parallel between Hebrew/Egyptian mythologies, indeed these two mythologies as they are called are strikingly dissimilar, but why is that?

And what understandings have been gleaned from ANE cultures to help us to understand the OT?
I suspect we do see the influence of their time in Egypt in the creation accounts. While Genesis 1 describes Creation from a watery chaos which as we have seen is a concept that fits the Babylonian creation accounts, Genesis 2 presents a very different picture of Creation. Creation starts not from a watery chaos, but from a barren wilderness. To the Egyptians there were two type of ground, the fertile black earth of the Nile valley and the barren red earth (deshret) of the wilderness. Although the bible uses a Hebrew word (adamah) to describe red earth, it is from this red earth God creates Adam and brings him to a fertile land where God had planted a garden and created not just one river but four.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
985
58
✟57,276.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
rcorlew wrote:

One thing that bothers me about some of the assumptions that are being made, after living in Egypt for 500 years and admittedly worshiping their gods, why do we not see a parallel between Hebrew/Egyptian mythologies, indeed these two mythologies as they are called are strikingly dissimilar, but why is that?

I haven't gotten into it much, but one possible answer comes from the archeologists and historians, as described here: The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Papias
 
Upvote 0

rcorlew

Serving His Flock
Aug 21, 2008
1,102
77
49
Missouri, the show me state!
✟16,657.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Thats the same with any ancient civilization. Oral tradition comes long before it is written. The task is to try to look at the little information we have and gather timelines and create highly speculated guesses as to when certain beliefs existed under what political powers. This is a problem for both Hebrew and non-Biblical religious views alike. Anything one side can say, the other can say right back.



Because the similarities are from the civilizations that surrounded the Israelites during the authorship of the Pentateuch (Canaanite, Assyrian and friends). Any egyptian influence would have faded for the more influencial and present cultures.




Let's start outside Genesis.

The typical ancient near eastern myth had the high god (we’ll use Babylonian mythology for this example) Marduk, and the god of death Mot, in a constant war and struggle. The high god would often lose to mot in battle, which is when winter came, and come back to life to fight again in the spring.

One of Mot’s (or any god of death’s) primary attributes was the image of him “swallowing” people down into his pit. The notion of death swallowing somebody is very common in the Old Testament. Just search the term swallow in the NASB on Biblegateway.org and you will see many examples of how death and descent into hell is put into words of being “swallowed up”. This is also the way that the death god usually kills the high god.

Now pay particular attention to the imagery in Isaiah 25:7-8a. “On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever.” In this prophesy, we see Yahweh doing what no other god in the ancient near east could…. Defeating death permanently. Marduk and Ba’al always succumbed to death and would rise again, temporarily defeating death only be killed again and again and again. But Yahweh swallows up death itself FOREVER!

This connection is nothing new, and has been used in commentaries on the passage for years, by both creationists and noncreationists alike. Why can’t we look at Genesis 1 in the same way?


We can also understand the context of Elijah and Elisha's narratives in Kings much better with the unearthing of the library under Ugarit, because of the wealth of Baal worship documents there, most notably the Baal Epic (a story of Baal's rise to power in the pantheon) and a variety of ritual texts pertaining to Baal.
I can provide full detail on this if you would like, but in short, we see the Elijah/Elisha narratives a push not just against Baalism, but against the entire Ancient Near Eastern pantheon. THere is no polytheism. There is only Yahweh who completely transcends the ANE stereotype god.
Of most significance in the narratives is the theophanies on Mt. Horeb in 1 Kings 19, where the fire, wind, and quake pass by, but Yahweh ends up being in none of those, but in the still small voice after. THanks to ANE scholarship, we know that fire, wind, and quake are classic storm god theophanies. In the context of the passage and looking at the culture of the area closer, we can see that Yahweh is declaring his transcendance outside the storm god profile, and outside mere functionality in the real world as all other gods were defined.

We no longer need to force a view of either a crocodile or a dinosaur onto the Leviathan creature found in Job, or Rahab found in Psalms and Job, and we see the actual power of Yahweh being displayed is on a whole new level. They are modeled after ANE sea monsters that, at the time, pretty much the entire biblical world thought existed and feared greatly. The sea was associated with chaos and the sea god and his minion and monsters were evil and usually the main enemy of the high god's rise to power (some have the high storm god fight just the sea, like babylon, while others like canaanite religion have the high god fight both the sea and death before he establishes his rulership). Leviathan matches the classic descriptions of the sea monster, and we see that the claim of the book of Job is that Yahweh has the power to control the most epic and dangerous creature in mythical lore! Thats right. The most dangerous creature ever imagine by mankind (although they thought he was real) was nothing compared to Yahweh. And while Rahab him/herself doesn't get much description, we see the ways Yahweh deals with him/her to be similar to the ways the high god defeats the sea god.

Do you want some more? Or more detail on any of those? I rambled in my mind and didn't proof read any so its very possible that in the middle there I got completely incomprehensible.

These things we learn are not new doctrine or powerful waves of theology that mankind cannot be saved without. Rather they are helpful to rekindle some of the emphasis in the narratives lost over the years. The post-enlightenment era gave a new wave of criticisms that attacked the validity of the Bible. I don't think it is coincidence that we uncovered these ancient documents when we did, because they go to great lengths to address the issues and problems that secular scholars lobby against the texts.

I don't mean to say that all Christians must learn about ANE culture and religion before they can understand the Bible. As somebody who has taken Greek and currently taking Hebrew, I would want make a parallel in benefits between learning the original language and learning the original cultures. Neither are needed in getting the overarching themes and messages, and you won't end up a heretic for not having them; however, those they work to clear up those little confusions, to answer nagging questions, and help avoid the bias of our own language and culture (although no approach is without bias, the goal is to keep it to a minimum or at least be self aware of your bias)

No, I do see the point you are trying to make, but there is a much larger overall question that has been looming in at least my mind for years, one that I have not taken the time to rightfully address, and not offense to you as you seem to be well versed on these matters, but I do not think that conversing on a forum to answer this question will ever fully satisfy my query.

My postulation, which would require a more intensive look especially while I have access to collegiate materials, is that the similarities of the god systems of all civilizations echo back to a common source. In almost all (all that I have read about) the main god is the sun, representative of life and light, this god is over a pantheon of lesser gods who may still be good or neutral, this defiantly harkens back to a revelation of God being of life and light. In direct opposition to this main god of the sun is a god of death, said to inhabit the underworld, feasting on the lives of its victims, this also points directly to a devil who is a god of the dead so to speak. I believe that as Romans (at least I do believe that it is Romans) states that God has revealed himself to all people, and this revelation is the common source that gave rise the many many different adaptations of truth.

One thing that is interesting that I have found so far, among a few other things, is the book of Job. Cast as a contemporary of Abraham, he lives in a different land and follows a different lineage than Abraham, yet he faithfully worships God, so much so that he caught God's attention. Now since Job was not of the Abrahamic descent and outside his area of influence, it is evident that Job must have come to a true revelation about God without influence from one of the key figures in Judaism, and Islam for that matter.

The sole difference between the Jews and any other civilization is not that God revealed himself to them, but for no other apparent reason other than God having a good name, desired to lift up the Jews and to prosper them despite any of their rebellion.

That is my query, is my hypothesis true, the investigation will continue.
 
Upvote 0

rcorlew

Serving His Flock
Aug 21, 2008
1,102
77
49
Missouri, the show me state!
✟16,657.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Melchizedek was also a man who worshiped and honored God (and received tribute from Abraham) yet was not part of the Abrahamic covenant.

Yes, Melchizedek is found in Psalms and in Hebrews, stating that Jesus was in the order of Melchizedek not Aaron.
 
Upvote 0

Siyha

Puppy Surprise
Mar 13, 2009
354
24
✟15,638.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No, I do see the point you are trying to make, but there is a much larger overall question that has been looming in at least my mind for years, one that I have not taken the time to rightfully address, and not offense to you as you seem to be well versed on these matters, but I do not think that conversing on a forum to answer this question will ever fully satisfy my query.

My postulation, which would require a more intensive look especially while I have access to collegiate materials, is that the similarities of the god systems of all civilizations echo back to a common source. In almost all (all that I have read about) the main god is the sun, representative of life and light, this god is over a pantheon of lesser gods who may still be good or neutral, this defiantly harkens back to a revelation of God being of life and light. In direct opposition to this main god of the sun is a god of death, said to inhabit the underworld, feasting on the lives of its victims, this also points directly to a devil who is a god of the dead so to speak. I believe that as Romans (at least I do believe that it is Romans) states that God has revealed himself to all people, and this revelation is the common source that gave rise the many many different adaptations of truth.

One thing that is interesting that I have found so far, among a few other things, is the book of Job. Cast as a contemporary of Abraham, he lives in a different land and follows a different lineage than Abraham, yet he faithfully worships God, so much so that he caught God's attention. Now since Job was not of the Abrahamic descent and outside his area of influence, it is evident that Job must have come to a true revelation about God without influence from one of the key figures in Judaism, and Islam for that matter.

The sole difference between the Jews and any other civilization is not that God revealed himself to them, but for no other apparent reason other than God having a good name, desired to lift up the Jews and to prosper them despite any of their rebellion.

That is my query, is my hypothesis true, the investigation will continue.

Thats a really need query to pursue. If you have access to a library with a decent biblical studies section, you should try and find the book series called, "Context of Scripture." Its 3 volumes of ANE texts, everything from political to religious, and completely overly footnoted. Another is Pritchard's "Ancient Near Eastern Texts, 3rd Edition." It isn't nearly as big, so the selection is much easier to navigate as CoS contains EVERYTHING, but Pritchard's lacks the footnotes. I would recomend these for self study if you want to avoid somebody else's opinion until you have a lot of information for yourself, because their comments are moreso just objetive statements about the text.

For a really good overview of popular scholarship's understanding of the Ancient Near East as it relates to the Old Testament, John Walton's, "Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament." I really like this book because its super easy to read and requires no background information prior to reading it. I think its used as a text for introduction classes. If you can't find it in a library, it would definately be worth ordering (unlike context of scripture which is $600). The reason I recomend this book so much is the format. He talks about a concept in the ANE, such as the importance of names, then in a separate section he gives his connection to the Old Testament. This is good because of their separation, you can be a lot more critical of his application to the OT while not needing to find issue in the basic information on the ANE he provides.

One point of clarification for your above post:
One of the things you'll find is that most of the religions contemporary to the Old Testament didn't have the Sun god as the high god, but rather the storm god. Think of a zeus type god. Egypt is the only one I am familiar with where the sun god is the high god (and that I would have to double check cause I'm not very familiar with egyptian mythology).

The high storm god is the son of the creator god, who is generally seen as fairly impotent and inactive after creation. El can be used as both a term for god and as a proper name of the primordial diety as it is in canaanite literature among others. A main scholarly attack on the Bible is that Yahweh is portrayed in some areas as an El deity, and in other times the storm deity. You can easily verse pick this, but whats awesome is when you compare the actual stories, you see that when similar imagery is used, its to distinguish Yahweh, and not syncredtize (is that word?) him.
 
Upvote 0

rcorlew

Serving His Flock
Aug 21, 2008
1,102
77
49
Missouri, the show me state!
✟16,657.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Thats a really need query to pursue. If you have access to a library with a decent biblical studies section, you should try and find the book series called, "Context of Scripture." Its 3 volumes of ANE texts, everything from political to religious, and completely overly footnoted. Another is Pritchard's "Ancient Near Eastern Texts, 3rd Edition." It isn't nearly as big, so the selection is much easier to navigate as CoS contains EVERYTHING, but Pritchard's lacks the footnotes. I would recomend these for self study if you want to avoid somebody else's opinion until you have a lot of information for yourself, because their comments are moreso just objetive statements about the text.

For a really good overview of popular scholarship's understanding of the Ancient Near East as it relates to the Old Testament, John Walton's, "Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament." I really like this book because its super easy to read and requires no background information prior to reading it. I think its used as a text for introduction classes. If you can't find it in a library, it would definately be worth ordering (unlike context of scripture which is $600). The reason I recomend this book so much is the format. He talks about a concept in the ANE, such as the importance of names, then in a separate section he gives his connection to the Old Testament. This is good because of their separation, you can be a lot more critical of his application to the OT while not needing to find issue in the basic information on the ANE he provides.

One point of clarification for your above post:
One of the things you'll find is that most of the religions contemporary to the Old Testament didn't have the Sun god as the high god, but rather the storm god. Think of a zeus type god. Egypt is the only one I am familiar with where the sun god is the high god (and that I would have to double check cause I'm not very familiar with egyptian mythology).

The high storm god is the son of the creator god, who is generally seen as fairly impotent and inactive after creation. El can be used as both a term for god and as a proper name of the primordial diety as it is in canaanite literature among others. A main scholarly attack on the Bible is that Yahweh is portrayed in some areas as an El deity, and in other times the storm deity. You can easily verse pick this, but whats awesome is when you compare the actual stories, you see that when similar imagery is used, its to distinguish Yahweh, and not syncredtize (is that word?) him.

I do find great value in learning the differences because they speak more profound than any similarities could. Realizing the importance of why the Truth of Scripture points solely to God and redemption at the cross, it is of little wonder that Satan who is the father of lies would twist the Truth just enough to blur the focus away from Jesus. The father of lies may well be the reason for the similarities, after all the more truth in a lie the more believable it will be, yet God is the only possible source for the differences.

I will take note of the books you stated I should look into, and try to scrounge up some other books specifically on Hebrew cultural beliefs outside of scripture, this should be an easy task as I am attending a Christian college which is connected to EBSCO Host's full offering of texts.

If syncredtize is not a word, perhaps we should make it so as it accurately describes what has occurred and what is still occurring today.
 
Upvote 0

UpperEschelon

Junior Member
Sep 8, 2010
283
5
✟15,443.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Do you accept what God said when He said that there is water above the sun, moon, and stars? Or was God lying?

Do we accept what God says? You can go ahead and call God a liar, I on the other hand, do not wish to do so.

There are waters resting above the firmament, as scripture reveals. These waters are not a part of the physical universe, as God did not assign any definitive boundaries to them. Yet they are able to exist, without any physicality.

This extends far out of the reach of any explanation logic or science can offer, but scripture does not lie.

God doesn't need yours nor anyone's permission to be God. It is a grave error to force God to always act in accordance to the confinements of natural laws, despite the fact the Bible is full of examples whereby natural laws are compromised.

[FONT=&quot]“Praise Him, you heaven of heavens,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And you waters above the heavens!”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Psalm 148:4 NJV)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] “The voice of the LORD is upon the waters.
The God of glory thunders,
The LORD is over many waters.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
(Psalm 29:3 NASB)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“ Your way was in the sea, Your path in the great waters, And Your footsteps were not known.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] (Psalm 77:19 NKJV)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot;
He walks upon the wings of the wind;” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Psalm 104:3 NKJV)[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]“He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](2 Samuel 22:12 NKJV)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Psalm 18:11 NASB)[/FONT]



 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
[FONT=&quot]“The voice of the LORD is upon the waters.
The God of glory thunders,
The LORD is over many waters.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
(Psalm 29:3 NASB)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
...

[FONT=&quot]“He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters; He makes the clouds His chariot;
He walks upon the wings of the wind;” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Psalm 104:3 NKJV)[/FONT]
...



[FONT=&quot]“He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](2 Samuel 22:12 NKJV)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Psalm 18:11 NASB)[/FONT]


But how can an omnipresent God be on anything, or have anything around Him?
 
Upvote 0

UpperEschelon

Junior Member
Sep 8, 2010
283
5
✟15,443.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
But how can an omnipresent God be on anything, or have anything around Him?

Yes God is omnipresent. But we also know, however, that He inhabits eternity, dwelling in heaven (i.e. 3rd heaven, above the 1st (earth) and 2nd (cosmos). Heaven is where His courts and throne are located, where He is surrounded by the angelic host. It is important understand the difference between these two aspects.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 25, 2010
168
0
✟7,803.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Where are the waters that are above the stars? We've seen about 70 billion light years away and and there are not "waters" out there "above" the stars. Could you explain what God meant when He said that He made the waters above the sun, moon and stars?

The universe is not restricted nor limited to what we are able to observe.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 25, 2010
168
0
✟7,803.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But the universe is restricted by the physical laws that it functions under.

Obviously, I fail to see any correlation here. Just because we are incapable of seeing beyond a certain point doesn't imply "that" is where the universe ends.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
985
58
✟57,276.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Happy wrote:

Obviously, I fail to see any correlation here. Just because we are incapable of seeing beyond a certain point doesn't imply "that" is where the universe ends.

OK, so let's be clear. Are you postulating the existance of an ocean beyond the limits of the currently observable universe, so that the universe we are in, that we can see, is in something like a bubble in an immensely huge body of water?

Just to clarify. Thanks-

-Papias
 
Upvote 0
Oct 25, 2010
168
0
✟7,803.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Happy wrote:



OK, so let's be clear. Are you postulating the existance of an ocean beyond the limits of the currently observable universe, so that the universe we are in, that we can see, is in something like a bubble in an immensely huge body of water?

Just to clarify. Thanks-

-Papias

It is not just what I am postulating. Miraculously, that is exactly what the scriptures reveal. God defined the firmament as the ``heavens``which is simply the expanse of the cosmos. The waters beneath the firmament form the seas and oceans of earth, yet the waters above it remain in their formless, chaotic state. They have no boundaires or barriers. These are simply definitions extracted from the scriptures themselves, simple extrapolation. I do believe someone previously posted some verses on the topic, UpperEschelon. These waters will cease to exist as John reveals in Revelations 21, which will be the cause for the mystery of God to be no more. This can only take place when all sin and death are permanently removed, this takes place just prior in chapter 20 of Rev.

Our universe would be but like a marble sinking to the depths of an endless ocean. These are the dark waters a psalmist reveals God has ``encompassed`` Himself with.
 
Upvote 0

philadiddle

Drumming circles around you
Dec 23, 2004
3,719
56
43
Canada
Visit site
✟4,522.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In response to the "water beyond the universe" idea, I now need to clarify something. Were those waters once connected to the waters on earth? After all they were separated. Enough water to surround the universe would be an awful lot, so was it all around earth to start with? If it was around the earth, wouldn't that be enough water to make the earth larger than our solar system? Then God decided to miraculously move it all to the outer edges (or beyond) the edge of the universe? Why would He do that?

Or, is it more likely that Genesis was using the symbolism of the creation myths of that culture to make a point. If so, is it possible that the point that was being made was more important than some metaphysical assumption about water around the edge of the universe?

Is it possible for God to use figurative language in the bible to make a point, without being a liar?
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
In response to the "water beyond the universe" idea, I now need to clarify something. Were those waters once connected to the waters on earth? After all they were separated. Enough water to surround the universe would be an awful lot, so was it all around earth to start with? If it was around the earth, wouldn't that be enough water to make the earth larger than our solar system? Then God decided to miraculously move it all to the outer edges (or beyond) the edge of the universe? Why would He do that?

Or, is it more likely that Genesis was using the symbolism of the creation myths of that culture to make a point. If so, is it possible that the point that was being made was more important than some metaphysical assumption about water around the edge of the universe?

Is it possible for God to use figurative language in the bible to make a point, without being a liar?

Regardless of all the other arguments, your last phrase annoys me, the second time. Be a sensible Christian, you should not use that description any more. It violates the basic theological principle. This description may be used to argue that you are not a Christian.

If God is God, then He is not a liar, but definition.
If someone is a liar, then he MUST NOT be God. This is also by definition.
You can not have a God and He is also a liar.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟31,520.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Regardless of all the other arguments, your last phrase annoys me, the second time. Be a sensible Christian, you should not use that description any more. It violates the basic theological principle. This description may be used to argue that you are not a Christian.

If God is God, then He is not a liar, but definition.
If someone is a liar, then he MUST NOT be God. This is also by definition.
You can not have a God and He is also a liar.

So, given these parameters, which I am sure philadiddle agrees with, will you answer his question?
 
Upvote 0