Question for the YECs

[philadiddle]

Do you accept what God said when He said that there is water above the sun, moon, and stars? Or was God lying?

 

[juvenissun]

Do you accept what God said when He said that there is water above the sun, moon, and stars? Or was God lying?

1. Yes. Of course I accept it.
2. Even I don't, God is not lying.

Unless you have something to follow up, this is a F grade question.

 

[philadiddle]

1. Yes. Of course I accept it.
2. Even I don't, God is not lying.

Unless you have something to follow up, this is a F grade question.

Where are the waters that are above the stars? We've seen about 70 billion light years away and and there are not "waters" out there "above" the stars. Could you explain what God meant when He said that He made the waters above the sun, moon and stars?

 

[juvenissun]

Where are the waters that are above the stars? We've seen about 70 billion light years away and and there are not "waters" out there "above" the stars. Could you explain what God meant when He said that He made the waters above the sun, moon and stars?

Would something with the properties of water count?

 

[philadiddle]

Would something with the properties of water count?

What would that be?

I'm just looking for the YEC explanation of this, and instead of insisting that you guys are wrong, I'm giving you a chance to explain it to me.

 

[juvenissun]

What would that be?

I'm just looking for the YEC explanation of this, and instead of insisting that you guys are wrong, I'm giving you a chance to explain it to me.

Something with properties similar to water.

Is it a good explanation?

 

[philadiddle]

Something with properties similar to water.

Is it a good explanation?

1. What has similar properties to water?

2. Why wouldn't God call it what it is if it's not actually water? Is He lying?

2. Where would we expect to find it?

 

[juvenissun]

1. What has similar properties to water?

2. Why wouldn't God call it what it is if it's not actually water? Is He lying?

2. Where would we expect to find it?

1. Many possibilities. Such as alcohol, or plasma.
2. He is not lying. We are stupid.
3. How about outer space?

Hey, this type of question should not only go to YEC. It should in fact, go to all Christians, including you, if you are one. You attempt to hook a few careless YEC answers. But for what purpose? Would that make TE look better? Does this word support evolution? If you interpreted the word figuratively, what would that be? You better say it loud that it is nonsense, God lies, and cast out your Christian faith.

 

[Partaker of Christ]

Do you accept what God said when He said that there is water above the sun, moon, and stars? Or was God lying?

Can you help with the scriptures that you refer to?

Thanks!

 

[philadiddle]

Can you help with the scriptures that you refer to?

Thanks!

Genesis chapter 1. God divided the waters above the firmament from the waters below the firmament, and He put the great lights that rule the day and night into the firmament, hence there is water above the sun and moon.

 

[philadiddle]

1. Many possibilities. Such as alcohol, or plasma.

So when God divided the waters above from the waters below, the waters below isn't a reference to the oceans?

2. He is not lying. We are stupid.

If He said water, why wouldn't He be talking about water?

3. How about outer space?

How would water in outer space be considered "above" the stars?

Hey, this type of question should not only go to YEC. It should in fact, go to all Christians, including you, if you are one. You attempt to hook a few careless YEC answers. But for what purpose? Would that make TE look better? Does this word support evolution? If you interpreted the word figuratively, what would that be? You better say it loud that it is nonsense, God lies, and cast out your Christian faith.

This has nothing to do with evolution, it's about interpreting scripture. This isn't an issue between YECs and TEs. I asked the YECs because they tend to be concordists. All of the experts of theology who preach a literal Genesis such as yourself, Calypsis4 who says he has studied this issue for 45 years, and many other YECs on this board claim that their view is a dominant view in theology and it is the only one that makes sense. So I'm probing some of the details. If it is in fact a scientific account then it should be easy to make sense of this. You seem to be making up the answer as you go along, and I haven't really heard an explanation of exactly what this part of scripture is talking about.

So please, if anybody who thinks that Genesis is a science lesson is reading this, please help Juv out a little bit.

 

[juvenissun]

So when God divided the waters above from the waters below, the waters below isn't a reference to the oceans?

If He said water, why wouldn't He be talking about water?
How would water in outer space be considered "above" the stars?

This has nothing to do with evolution, it's about interpreting scripture. This isn't an issue between YECs and TEs. I asked the YECs because they tend to be concordists. All of the experts of theology who preach a literal Genesis such as yourself, Calypsis4 who says he has studied this issue for 45 years, and many other YECs on this board claim that their view is a dominant view in theology and it is the only one that makes sense. So I'm probing some of the details. If it is in fact a scientific account then it should be easy to make sense of this. You seem to be making up the answer as you go along, and I haven't really heard an explanation of exactly what this part of scripture is talking about.

So please, if anybody who thinks that Genesis is a science lesson is reading this, please help Juv out a little bit.

I was exploring what kind of answer you are looking for. In fact, give answers to your questions is a very easy thing to do. Because you do not know how to ask.

And I do think you should also tell YEC people what is your thought about this word. If you don't have any idea about it, then the question is: how do you deal with this verse? Ignore it? or accuse God of lying? Either way, what YEC is doing is much better than what you would do.

-------

Mistakes in your Bible reading: Our sun and moon did not show up until Day 4.

 

[juvenissun]

So when God divided the waters above from the waters below, the waters below isn't a reference to the oceans?

If He said water, why wouldn't He be talking about water?
How would water in outer space be considered "above" the stars?

1. No it is not ocean. The ocean appeared in the next verse.
2. Because we only understand what water is. (i.e. Moses does not know what is plasma and can not use that word)
3. Direction opposite to the gravity force is called "up" or "above".

 

[philadiddle]

And I do think you should also tell YEC people what is your thought about this word. If you don't have any idea about it, then the question is: how do you deal with this verse? Ignore it? or accuse God of lying? Either way, what YEC is doing is much better than what you would do.

And what would I do with this passage? You've been debating this subject for a while now so I'm sure you're familiar with other perspectives. So what is it about how I would deal with it that is worse than what YECs do?

Mistakes in your Bible reading: Our sun and moon did not show up until Day 4.

Sorry, what mistake did I make in my reading?

1. No it is not ocean. The ocean appeared in the next verse.

Hmmm, it seems that the waters were divided by the firmament in verse 6 to make the waters above and the waters below, then in verse 9 the waters below were gathered into one place, the oceans. So it seems like the waters being divided is actually referring to water. Except that you contend that the waters above are still something else. I'm just looking for answers from the YEC perspective as to how this fits in with the structure of our universe.

2. Because we only understand what water is. (i.e. Moses does not know what is plasma and can not use that word)

Are you saying that you think that the author's limited understanding of the universe had something to do with how it was written? (I consider this to be a very important question for you to answer)

3. Direction opposite to the gravity force is called "up" or "above".

In verse 17 God sets the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament, but earlier he used the firmament to divide the waters above from the waters below. So where exactly in the universe is "above" the stars? Just saying up relative to our gravity doesn't really say much because the entire universe is technically "up". Does it mean the edge of the universe is made of water? Is the firmament a reference to all of the universe except for earth?

If these questions seem to be all over the place maybe you could give me a full explanation of what it is describing and try to incorporate answers to these questions in your explanation.

If you insist I give you an explanation of how I interpret them I gladly will, but I'm looking at giving the YEC community on this board a crack at it first. I'm surprised that not many YECs have responded.

 

[addo]

I believe it depends on what do you understand by waters.

[FONT=&quot]And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Revelation 17:15 KJV)[/FONT]

If it is symbolism and by 'waters' God means people, then we are above stars in value. We are made in the image of God (Genesis 5:1-2). A star is not going to be more valuable than us, is it?

I believe that that "waters" refer to the atmosphere, i.e.: clouds.

But who knows? After all, Jesus is the water (of life). Jesus is above all the heavens, thus there is Water above the heavens.

Symbolism is cool, isn't it?

 

[philadiddle]

I believe it depends on what do you understand by waters.
If it is symbolism and by 'waters' God means people, then we are above stars in value. We are made in the image of God (Genesis 5:1-2). A star is not going to be more valuable than us, is it?

I believe that that "waters" refer to the atmosphere, i.e.: clouds.

But who knows? After all, Jesus is the water (of life). Jesus is above all the heavens, thus there is Water above the heavens.

Symbolism is cool, isn't it?

If the water is a reference to the clouds, does that mean the sun, moon and stars are below the clouds?

 

[juvenissun]

Are you saying that you think that the author's limited understanding of the universe had something to do with how it was written? (I consider this to be a very important question for you to answer)

Of course.

Can you use the right word now to describe the dark matter? We call it the dark matter, which will be a laughter after we find out what it is.

 

[juvenissun]

If the water is a reference to the clouds, does that mean the sun, moon and stars are below the clouds?

Why are you bothered with this relative position issue? How would it matter?

Yes, below the cloud, or in the cloud. If you need a reason to see it in reverse, then why not above the cloud?

The Bible talks about things from the human point of view. So, we have the orientation of above and below.

 

[philadiddle]

Are you saying that you think that the author's limited understanding of the universe had something to do with how it was written? (I consider this to be a very important question for you to answer)

Of course.

Well I certainly agree with you on this. I think that what God wanted to explain through the human author was influenced by that person's cosmological view. So far it seems that you agree. So since the people at that time saw the universe as a giant ocean, would that have affected the way it was written? The concept they had of the universe was that the waters of the universe were divided by the firmament, which was a solid structure, and in the firmament the sun, moon, and stars were set. There were windows in the firmament that let in the rain and snow. It seems that a straightforward literal reading of Genesis would give us this kind of view. The waters are divided by the firmament, and the sun, moon and stars were placed in the firmament. This makes perfect sense.

This does not mean that God was lying, it means that God was correcting the theological views of the culture at that time and He was accommodating that explanation to the level of understanding that the human author had. It was NOT intended to be a science lesson, it is a theology lesson.

It is very easy to understand it in this light, and most theologians agree with this. It seems that when you try to make it about science as we understand it today you end up coming up with all sorts of ad hoc explanations.

Do you think it is acceptable to see the bible as a literal account of the universe as the human author saw it or does it have to be a literal account of science as we understand it?

 

[Partaker of Christ]

Genesis chapter 1. God divided the waters above the firmament from the waters below the firmament, and He put the great lights that rule the day and night into the firmament, hence there is water above the sun and moon.

ah right, Thanks!
Then I would have to say that I disagree.

Verse 2; is talking about the waters that covered the earth, and that the Spirit of God moved UPON the face of the waters.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It would hardly mean waters that covered the universe.

The firmament was in the MIDST (middle) of the waters. That would mean something like 50/50

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

If 50% is what is in our oceans, then it would be quite a stretch for the other 50% to reach way above the sun, moon and stars (that was not even there until the fourth day).

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

I understand the firmament (heaven) to be the atmosphere or sky.

Deu 4:17 the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens;

2Sa 18:9 And Absalom came before David's servants. And Absalom was riding on a mule, and the mule came in under the thick branches of a great oak. And his head caught hold in the oak, and he was lifted up between the heavens and the earth. And the mule under him passed on.
2Sa 18:10 And a man saw and told Joab, and said, Behold! I saw Absalom hanging in the oak;

Matt 6:26 Observe the birds of the heaven, that they do not sow, nor do they reap, nor do they gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Do you not rather excel them?

Act 10:12 in which were all the four-footed animals of the earth, and the wild beasts, and the creeping things, and the birds of the heaven

Act 11:6 Looking intently on this, I observed. And I saw the four-footed animals of the earth, and the wild beasts, and the creeping things, and the birds of the heaven.